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Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

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Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#31

Post by thedufer »

simulate wrote: post #7

I'm surprised this is coming from Spolsky. Spolsky's companies must be getting big. Small companies can often only hire one person at a time and therefore need short acceptance windows. Small companies (< 50 people) often have only one specific position open. It is unethical to make more than one offer if you hiring for a single position. Therefore small companies often need short acceptance windows so they can make…

I've been sitting on a Fog Creek offer since late August and there's been no pressure whatsoever to respond. They seem to take more of the approach of giving out offers to anyone they like, on the assumption that they'll be able to find something for them to do if they all take it. Joel definitely sticks to his guns on this one, but I wouldn't call either of his companies big (pretty sure they both fall in the < 50 people category).

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#32

Post by axiom »

funkah wrote: post #10

So accept the initial offer, do the interview with the #1 choice anyway, and if it works out, drop the runner-up. They don't need to be on your resume. The first choice doesn't need to know about any of this, though you might have to get creative with the interview scheduling. I have no doubt that the scenario Joel describes is real, but anyone who gets screwed this way needs a bit more of the "dog eat dog" mindset.…

What would you think of a company that made someone an offer and a few weeks before the start of the internship said "you know, we actually found someone better so we won't be hiring you after all."

Both the company and the employee should be honest. Period. Anything else and you're being an asshole who's screwing people over.

Exploding offers are there 95% of the time because a company has a schedule to follow and can't just wait for someone to make up their mind for a month (especially for a 4 month internship which follows a tight schedule) - they need to be able to issue the offer to their second choice if the first choice isn't interested because otherwise they lose both.

It's so easy to rationalize being dishonest by projecting bad motives on others.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#33

Post by DavidChouinard »

> Thanksgiving marks the start of tech’s most intense hiring season, as promising computer science students start looking for summer jobs and internships.

I'm a student. Legitimate question, is this true? Should I be starting to get my act together for summer internships?

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#34

Post by nobody314159265 »

DavidChouinard wrote: post #33

> Thanksgiving marks the start of tech’s most intense hiring season, as promising computer science students start looking for summer jobs and internships. I'm a student. Legitimate question, is this true? Should I be starting to get my act together for summer internships?

Yes - especially for the big name firms in the US

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#35

Post by chubot »

Swizec wrote: post #15
rcfox wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ethics? Not wanting to burn bridges?

I don't know about ethics, wouldn't everyone understand if a person's situation changes in 6 months? That's a lot of time. Say I accept an offer in December, then get a better one in May. Wouldn't the December offer be understanding of the fact that hey, I'm gonna have to change my mind here.

Uh yeah, ethics.

You can treat life like a big exercise in game theory. But you're going to have this thing called a "reputation". Maybe you can get away with it on your campus interviews, but if you consistently lie to get the best of a situation, it will catch up to you. (Lying in this case being accepting an offer without the intention of taking it. As opposed to saying you need time to consider other offers.)

Joel is right -- this is a tactic used by second-rate companies. First-rate companies don't pull bullshit like this. Same with first-rate employees. Accepting every offer and then reneging on all but one marks you as a second-rate employee. It's the behavior of the desperate.

Personally I have always just applied for 1 or 2 jobs at a time so it's never been an issue.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#36

Post by wahnfrieden »

DavidChouinard wrote: post #33

> Thanksgiving marks the start of tech’s most intense hiring season, as promising computer science students start looking for summer jobs and internships. I'm a student. Legitimate question, is this true? Should I be starting to get my act together for summer internships?

Yes, particularly in December. Better to get started before companies have had to make decisions on many other applicants already, and this is about when some companies will start considering them in my experience. Other companies will start later so you're not screwed if you don start now, but you will be passing up some opportunities probably.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#37

Post by tptacek »

funkah wrote: post #10

So accept the initial offer, do the interview with the #1 choice anyway, and if it works out, drop the runner-up. They don't need to be on your resume. The first choice doesn't need to know about any of this, though you might have to get creative with the interview scheduling. I have no doubt that the scenario Joel describes is real, but anyone who gets screwed this way needs a bit more of the "dog eat dog" mindset.…

The last 1/5th of the article is about exactly this strategy.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#38

Post by GiraffeNecktie »

impendia wrote: post #28

> Trust me on this one: there’s not a single hiring manager in the world who wants to hire you but would get mad just because you’re considering other offers. Although Joel Spolsky certainly knows more than me, I'll ask anyway: Is that really true? Perhaps it is, but I would guess that this is a pretty big overstatement. However, I think it can safely be said (and this is maybe not obvious to many prospective interns…

He's just stating the obvious. If they think you're a desirable employee, they're not going to be offended if you are considering multiple offers. Or if they are, they are so unprofessional and petty, that you're better off staying away. This is business, not dating.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#39

Post by tptacek »

impendia wrote: post #28

> Trust me on this one: there’s not a single hiring manager in the world who wants to hire you but would get mad just because you’re considering other offers. Although Joel Spolsky certainly knows more than me, I'll ask anyway: Is that really true? Perhaps it is, but I would guess that this is a pretty big overstatement. However, I think it can safely be said (and this is maybe not obvious to many prospective interns…

I believe it's true; in fact, if it was ever slightly overstated, it is less overstated now, when the competition for talent is even fiercer.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#40

Post by tptacek »

dsolomon wrote: post #12

Now that Joel has covered how credible and ethical recruiters, and the companies they support, should behave - when can we expect to see them?

You can't expect to see them, any more than a major car manufacturer can decide to enforce ethics in "their" sales rooms and remain competitive in the market place. The market dynamics for recruitment are dominated by adverse selection. The best recruiters can pick the best employers to work with and have little incentive to work in lesser-known companies. The (considerably larger) remainder of the market is run by sleazebag recruiters; that's all most companies will ever get to work with (internally or outsourced).
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