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Apple’s Killing the Password. Here’s Everything You Need to Know

wired.com

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Re: Apple’s Killing the Password. Here’s Everything You Need to Know

#11

Post by asplake »

hayst4ck wrote: post #3

> Passkeys work in Apple’s Safari web browser as well as on its devices. I sure wish apple would be a little bit better of a citizen when it comes to interoperability. Safari only features (which is what I'm assuming this will be based on apples history and the quote) are upsetting. uBlock is the single most important piece of software on my computer and my devotion to it exceeds any and all possible other features.…

What is Apple doing wrong here? Surely it’s a case of Apple being first to implement a standard where other vendors – Firefox included – are expected to follow?

I don’t know what it means for the password managers, but I don't see that it stops you using those either.

Re: Apple’s Killing the Password. Here’s Everything You Need to Know

#12

Post by mort96 »

Y-bar wrote: post #7
mort96 wrote: post #4

One thing I never understood about this passkeys thing is: how will the passkeys database be kept in sync between your iPhone, your Windows desktop, your Linux laptop and your Android tablet? I've tried to research the topic a bit but everything I've been able to find has been about exporting and importing between ecosystems, but most people don't use only a single company's products.

Passwords are synced to Windows via iCloud, i suppose these keys would be synced like that as well: https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/icloud-windows/icwd3c1...

Right, but all software which uses passwords would need to support it too, right? I'm not confident that all of the Windows ecosystem will adopt iCloud for passkeys, nor am I confident that Apple will tightly integrate into whatever system thing Microsoft puts in Windows to manage FIDO keys... This isn't like a password manager after all, where getting the key in your clipboard is a universal way to use it anywhere you want.

Re: Apple’s Killing the Password. Here’s Everything You Need to Know

#13

Post by JumpCrisscross »

mort96 wrote: post #10
huijzer wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has a long history of working best together with Apple. For example, the iPod music players only worked with iTunes. I think that Apple hopes that such features cause people to switch more of their electronics to Apple

Sure, but this is trying to replace passwords. As much as Apple would want it different, there's a whole lot of people who use one Apple device but has other devices from other manufacturers, and surely an industry effort like FIDO to replace passwords would take that into account?

> there's a whole lot of people who use one Apple device but has other devices from other manufacturers, and surely an industry effort like FIDO to replace passwords would take that into account?

They're not the beachhead. Once the product is tuned for core users, it can be expanded to more complex use cases. This is basic product development, and something Apple gets right.

Re: Apple’s Killing the Password. Here’s Everything You Need to Know

#15

Post by hayst4ck »

asplake wrote: post #11
hayst4ck wrote: post #3

> Passkeys work in Apple’s Safari web browser as well as on its devices. I sure wish apple would be a little bit better of a citizen when it comes to interoperability. Safari only features (which is what I'm assuming this will be based on apples history and the quote) are upsetting. uBlock is the single most important piece of software on my computer and my devotion to it exceeds any and all possible other features.…

What is Apple doing wrong here? Surely it’s a case of Apple being first to implement a standard where other vendors – Firefox included – are expected to follow? I don’t know what it means for the password managers, but I don't see that it stops you using those either.

I want to use my iCloud keychain as a password manager since the level of trust I've already given apple allows them to acquire most of my passwords (and 2 factor codes) anyway.

Safari integrates with it, but there is no Firefox or chrome plugin to do domain based validation or to keep my clipboard sane.

Apple has either failed to allow uBlock to function in safari (after which I would consider migrating to safari), failed to write the Firefox integration plugin, or failed to create an API that would allow a third party to build a plugin. While apple can certainly choose to do/not do those things, it is not a happy customer experience.

Re: Apple’s Killing the Password. Here’s Everything You Need to Know

#16

Post by zxcvgm »

mort96 wrote: post #4

One thing I never understood about this passkeys thing is: how will the passkeys database be kept in sync between your iPhone, your Windows desktop, your Linux laptop and your Android tablet? I've tried to research the topic a bit but everything I've been able to find has been about exporting and importing between ecosystems, but most people don't use only a single company's products.

The passkeys are only synced across Apple devices, via iCloud keychain. Trying to sign in on another device (e.g. Windows laptop, Android phone) will require scanning a QR code. The devices then establish a secure channel using FIDO caBLE v2 (introduced by Google/Chrome, I believe) to perform the authentication. This ensures the passkeys never leave your Apple device, but can still be used on other devices.

You can see the sign-in user experience here, when they use a non-Apple device: https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2022/10092/

Re: Apple’s Killing the Password. Here’s Everything You Need to Know

#17

Post by 4ad »

hayst4ck wrote: post #15
asplake wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is Apple doing wrong here? Surely it’s a case of Apple being first to implement a standard where other vendors – Firefox included – are expected to follow? I don’t know what it means for the password managers, but I don't see that it stops you using those either.

I want to use my iCloud keychain as a password manager since the level of trust I've already given apple allows them to acquire most of my passwords (and 2 factor codes) anyway. Safari integrates with it, but there is no Firefox or chrome plugin to do domain based validation or to keep my clipboard sane. Apple has either failed to allow uBlock to function in safari (after which I would consider migrating to safari),…

> there is no Firefox or chrome plugin to do domain based validation or to keep my clipboard sane.

That's Chrome's and Firefox' fault for not using the password autofill APIs: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/security/password_...

Chrome issue: https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=117006...

Firefox issue: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1650212

Btw, Chrome used to be able to read from Apple Keychain, but they removed that functionality years ago.

Re: Apple’s Killing the Password. Here’s Everything You Need to Know

#18

Post by Grimburger »

hayst4ck wrote: post #3

> Passkeys work in Apple’s Safari web browser as well as on its devices. I sure wish apple would be a little bit better of a citizen when it comes to interoperability. Safari only features (which is what I'm assuming this will be based on apples history and the quote) are upsetting. uBlock is the single most important piece of software on my computer and my devotion to it exceeds any and all possible other features.…

> I would very much like to stop moving from password manager to password manager after they take VC money to corrupt their trust model so they can make money.

Use the free and open source one?

Re: Apple’s Killing the Password. Here’s Everything You Need to Know

#19

Post by [deleted] »

hsbauauvhabzb wrote: post #8
huijzer wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has a long history of working best together with Apple. For example, the iPod music players only worked with iTunes. I think that Apple hopes that such features cause people to switch more of their electronics to Apple

And the educated consumer hopes one of these players will push to face and trigger anticompetitive legislation.

[deleted]
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