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After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

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Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#121

Post by lajamerr »

xyzzyz wrote: post #102
lajamerr wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you should be punished for a crime for more than the harm/compensation/individual deterrence, just so that you can stop future crimes by unrelated people by you being a peg that others can consider if they might commit a similar crime? I really ask you to consider this from a moral standpoint. Society isn't always right. Sometimes society just does things because it's easier, not because it's right.

> So you should be punished for a crime for more than the harm/compensation/individual deterrence, just so that you can stop future crimes by unrelated people by you being a peg that others can consider if they might commit a similar crime? Exactly right. I want to send a message to potential criminals. I think that it’s highly beneficial to sacrifice the well being of a criminal in order to prevent more people from…

There's all kinds of people in this world and we can all live and have incompatible ideas. Just as you have your position and defend it, so will I. This clash of ideals of various parties I believe helps bring out the ideal solution eventually. The path of adding additional punishment onto the individual/company for the sake of deterrence I believe is the lazy/easy solution. I believe there are smarter/more complex solutions that require more work but are ultimately more just and fair. We might see things differently but I believe we both want a better society and we differ on the way things may be achieved.

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#122

Post by SilasX »

eganp wrote: post #94
jerrya wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently, Oberlin's President sent out the following email which states their insurance will pay > Dear Obies, > Today, Oberlin College and Conservatory initiated payment in full of the $36.59 million judgment in the Gibson’s Bakery case, an amount that represents the awarded damages and interest owed. Please see the college’s public statement below. > While this outcome is a disappointment, our financial plans for…

I'm surprised the insurance will pay for this. The judgment, and actions by Oberlin's administration, strongly suggest they were acting in bad faith. The college's behavior exceed negligence, the typical threshold in these sort of insurance contracts. Pretty incredible Oberlin can get out of this considering what other insurers will do to avoid paying for incidents with cause.

Yeah, I was wondering about that. I would expect that, at a minimum, the insurer would raise Oberlin’s rates and/or required them to make changes in policy.

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#123

Post by etempleton »

Kadin wrote: post #116
eganp wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm surprised the insurance will pay for this. The judgment, and actions by Oberlin's administration, strongly suggest they were acting in bad faith. The college's behavior exceed negligence, the typical threshold in these sort of insurance contracts. Pretty incredible Oberlin can get out of this considering what other insurers will do to avoid paying for incidents with cause.

> I'm surprised the insurance will pay for this. Yeah I'm a bit surprised by that, too. The negotiations with their insurer must have been really something. Only thing I can imagine is that they cut some sort of deal that makes it worth the insurance company not trying to fight with them over it. Maybe they have to basically pay it back over time with interest..?

My guess is Oberlin pays them a whole lot of money every year. And will pay increased premiums moving forward. For the insurance company it may be a no brainer to keep their business. It will pay for itself in 5-10 years.

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#124

Post by dillondoyle »

vwoolf wrote: post #7
duxup wrote: post #2

“ The message to other colleges is to have the intestinal fortitude to be the adult in the room” That seems to be the most apt conclusion. Being an educational institution should involve more than just indulging the students. It should also challenge them and be measured in their responses to events, even if that means being unpopular with students.

Being an educational institution should involve more than just indulging the students The Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression (FIRE) free-speech rankings seem like a good proxy for this: https://www.thefire.org/research/publications/student-survey...

I just spent some time looking around that site.

most of the example complaints they highlight are just students saying they don't feel comfortable speaking up or they had dorm mate issues.

Does not feel like a good way to rank a school's actions to hinder speech (as an institution/administration).

Does have some better real examples but large majority I read were not.

Just because you don't feel comfortable doesn't mean someone is stopping you from speaking.

You can't force someone to live with or listen to ones ___ whatever religion, hate speech, crazy liberal ideas etc.

And yes.. Most young people are pretty open minded and fairly liberal.

If you hold views outside that box you should speak them! But you can't be made if people judge you or the majority speak themselves against those beliefs.

I don't see how those common complaints are a school forcing someone to be silent or punishing them for their viewpoints.

Maybe I'm being too emotional given recent court rulings/direction of my country; Which is probably why I took so much time on that site and commenting.

But your speech !== that I will listen, or not judge you, or allow you to be around me.

A lot of the religious court rulings (PrEP most recent) feel like these complaints. Freedom to speak/express your religion does not go so far as to control my choices and my body or force me to listen to you.

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#125

Post by MikePlacid »

Lazare wrote: post #79
crackercrews wrote: post #45

> The college said then that the bakery’s “archaic chase-and-detain policy regarding suspected shoplifters was the catalyst for the protests.” IIRC, the employee tried to take a photo of the shoplifter with his phone. The shoplifter took/smashed the phone or something. This makes it much more reasonable for the employee to try to stop the shoplifter from getting away. It wasn't like he tried to cuff the guy off the b…

Yep. From wikipedia: > On Wednesday, November 9, 2016, an underage African-American Oberlin College student and Student Assistant Treasurer,[9] Jonathan Aladin (aka Elijah Aladin), attempted to purchase a bottle of wine using a fake identification card.[8] The store clerk, Allyn D. Gibson, a son and grandson of the owners,[6] rejected the fake ID. Gibson noticed that the student was concealing two other bottles of wi…

> That's not really an example of a "chase-and-detain policy", nor was it a "suspected shoplifter"; by the time anyone was chasing anyone else, it was a matter of assault.

I was under the impression that punching and kicking turns shoplifting into a robbery, no?

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#126

Post by [deleted] »

remarkEon wrote: post #99
fortran77 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I just looked on Twitter and see many, many Oberlin grads lamenting the Gibson's judgement and claiming that "everyone always knew" Gibson's was "racist" without any hard facts. Just one example: https://twitter.com/ejdickson/status/1566061809500622848 She's still calling people who pled guilty to shoplifting "alleged shoplifters." That's dishonest. Let's just say I don't hold by that school's accreditation.

Unrelated to your reply, but that twitter thread is truly bizarre. >The one thing about this that has always struck me as ludicrous is the argument that the student body serves as a tool of the colleges whims. Students fucking hate the administration and resist it at every turn, & always have…much like 19 yos at any liberal arts college Then why go to these schools? I don't understand why you'd pay $80k a year (just…

[deleted]

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#127

Post by gnicholas »

lajamerr wrote: post #88
gnicholas wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The magnitude of punitive damages is not to deter others. It's to deter the responsible party. They are calibrated to be large enough to catch the attention of the party being held responsible. If they were meant to deter others, they would be pegged to the size of other potential wrongdoers. But they are not. They are pegged to the size of the actual wrongdoer.

And size is already calculated in with the idea of deterring others based on sentencing guidelines.

Sentencing guidelines are for criminal convictions. This was a civil case. There are also no punitive damages in criminal convictions. This area of law is a bit nuanced, and the details matter. In the US, criminal punishments are not ratcheted up based on your wealth. I believe there are some Nordic countries where this is done, with traffic violations at least.

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#129

Post by alsaaro »

crackercrews wrote: post #19
jjeaff wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't necessarily go against your point, but I have seen far too many innocent people coerced into pleading guilty to actually believe someone is guilty based on a guilty plea.

Sure, that happens. But it's most likely when the accused has too few resources to win at trial. Here the college was clearly in their corner. Why would they plead guilty and say racism was no part of it? Their statements seems very credible under the circumstances.

The kids accused of shoplifting were charged with felonies and eventually plead down to misdemeanors.

Race is always a factor in America, especially its criminal justice system, are the students confessions genuine contrition or motivated by fear of disproportionate punishment?

A question impossible to answer.

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#130

Post by UberFly »

pc86 wrote: post #106
crackercrews wrote: post #45

> The college said then that the bakery’s “archaic chase-and-detain policy regarding suspected shoplifters was the catalyst for the protests.” IIRC, the employee tried to take a photo of the shoplifter with his phone. The shoplifter took/smashed the phone or something. This makes it much more reasonable for the employee to try to stop the shoplifter from getting away. It wasn't like he tried to cuff the guy off the b…

It doesn't even qualify in this instance, but in what universe is thinking that people who commit crimes should be detained so they can be arrested an archaic thing? You don't need to have a Blue Lives bumper sticker on your car to think that people being punished for committing crimes is a good thing.

There's your first mistake - thinking logically and rationally about the issue. Anymore, these kinds of issues have become religion.
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