Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Germany's €9 transit ticket cuts 1.8 million tonnes of CO2

weforum.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 77 posts

Re: Germany's €9 transit ticket cuts 1.8 million tonnes of CO2

#31

Post by detaro »

jupp0r wrote: post #28

This has cost the German government 2.5 billion Euros [1]. That’s $1388 per metric ton of CO2. Current direct air capture technology is estimated to cost between $132 and $342 per metric ton [2]. If the goal was to reduce carbon emissions, this was a giant waste of money, even compared to the most expensive forms of carbon reduction. [1] https://www.stuttgarter-zeitung.de/inhalt.9-euro-ticket-kost... [2] https://www.…

> If the goal was to reduce carbon emission

It wasn't, but it's a neat side effect.

Re: Germany's €9 transit ticket cuts 1.8 million tonnes of CO2

#32

Post by izacus »

robertlagrant wrote: post #23
JonathanBeuys wrote: post #18

If the goal is to reduce CO2 emissions, why not tax CO2 emissions? Shouldn't the market work it out in the best possible way then?

In the UK road tax is based on your car's CO2 emissions. The problem is when the VW scandal broke, lots of people had bought diesels to lower their CO2 and suddenly diesels were evil and needed disincentivising. So the problem is anything like that isn't cleverly designed enough to be trustworthy, or even if it is, political whim could still overturn it.

I seriously doubt diesels were ever bought to "lower their CO2 emissions". At no point in time there was ever doubt that diesels were the more polluting option.

People bought diesels due to their lower consumption per 100km and lower diesel prices in comparison to 95.

Re: Germany's €9 transit ticket cuts 1.8 million tonnes of CO2

#33

Post by fridental »

The 9€ ticket "success story" looks like a large hoax mainly created by green-friendly media.

1) The CO2 savings are nothing more than a wild guess rather than a scientifically sound estimation. The real numbers might be as low as 600000 tonns. And even these numbers are unsure because they include all those car drivers who have used this ticket only once during the 3-month test period, out of curiosity, and therefore can't be used for reliable prediction of what would happen if this kind of tickets will be introduced permanently.

2) At the same time, we don't know the real costs of this experiment yet. Some sources call it to be 10 billions instead of 2,5 billions.

3) Overall, only 10% of ticket users chose public transport instead of their car. Most of the trips has been generated by people who wouldn't travel at all if the ticket was not so cheap. And on the other hand, there are many news that people who usually commute using public transportation had to fall back to the cars, because the trains were so overcrowded and were frequently cancelled.

More scientific studies are needed to research the REAL effects of this experiment. We shouldn't make any political decisions based on the wishful thinking only.

Re: Germany's €9 transit ticket cuts 1.8 million tonnes of CO2

#34

Post by hnaccount_rng »

jupp0r wrote: post #28

This has cost the German government 2.5 billion Euros [1]. That’s $1388 per metric ton of CO2. Current direct air capture technology is estimated to cost between $132 and $342 per metric ton [2]. If the goal was to reduce carbon emissions, this was a giant waste of money, even compared to the most expensive forms of carbon reduction. [1] https://www.stuttgarter-zeitung.de/inhalt.9-euro-ticket-kost... [2] https://www.…

But that really wasn’t the intent. The intent was to lighten the burden of the parts of the society that did not profit from the gas subsidy. What you see here is basically the knock on effect of what essentially-free public transport changes in travel behavior without the time to actually affect vehicle inventory (ie it’s a lower bound)

There is also the point of scale, I wouldn’t bet on the capacity for carbon removal on that scale exists today (not that I would be against investing that amount of additional funding for carbon capture technology)

Re: Germany's €9 transit ticket cuts 1.8 million tonnes of CO2

#35

Post by codyb »

aqme28 wrote: post #2

It's interesting watching the difference in how transit is treated by officials between NYC (where I lived last year) and Berlin (where I live this year). In NYC, we're ramping up enforcement and cracking down on fare jumping. In Berlin, it's the opposite-- less fare-enforcement and more subsidies for people to take the train. I really have a hard time seeing how NYC's strategy could be more effective. It's not even…

As much as maybe fare evasion is a secondary concern, I think the main reason they're cracking down on the subways in NYC is because people weren't feeling safe on the trains anymore.

As much as I love a free and open and fair society, you can see why people not my size might be uncomfortable next to people growling, sleeping with trash bags filled with their belongings, drinking out of brown paper bags, rolling and smoking blunts and cigarettes. (I mostly bike these days but I saw all of that in recent subway trips during the early summer).

And then there was the rash of incidents on the subway with people getting shot at stations, the guy who tried to set off a smoke bomb and pulled out a gun on the car and started shooting, the guy who smeared shit on someone's face, the people who've been pushed onto tracks.

These incidents are _incredibly_ rare, but the way humans work doesn't let a lot of us shake off that perception of the subways being less safe than they used to be.

I'm not one of those people, I base my fears on statistics, but you can't expect every human being, especially smaller people, the elderly, and women to be as carefree.

Re: Germany's €9 transit ticket cuts 1.8 million tonnes of CO2

#36

Post by wongarsu »

jupp0r wrote: post #28

This has cost the German government 2.5 billion Euros [1]. That’s $1388 per metric ton of CO2. Current direct air capture technology is estimated to cost between $132 and $342 per metric ton [2]. If the goal was to reduce carbon emissions, this was a giant waste of money, even compared to the most expensive forms of carbon reduction. [1] https://www.stuttgarter-zeitung.de/inhalt.9-euro-ticket-kost... [2] https://www.…

It was part of a relieve packet to help people through high fuel prices: make it easier to travel by public transit, along with a reduction in gasoline tax (that cost us 3.15 billion euros).

Seeing that one of those two even reduced emissions is a nice bonus. It didn't have to do that at all to be a success.

[1] https://www.bundestag.de/dokumente/textarchiv/2022/kw20-de-e...

Re: Germany's €9 transit ticket cuts 1.8 million tonnes of CO2

#37

Post by codyb »

jupp0r wrote: post #28

This has cost the German government 2.5 billion Euros [1]. That’s $1388 per metric ton of CO2. Current direct air capture technology is estimated to cost between $132 and $342 per metric ton [2]. If the goal was to reduce carbon emissions, this was a giant waste of money, even compared to the most expensive forms of carbon reduction. [1] https://www.stuttgarter-zeitung.de/inhalt.9-euro-ticket-kost... [2] https://www.…

But how much money flows into their coffers from increased tourism/isn't spent to bail out businesses with less customers?

I think this leaves out that people who can more readily access more of Germany spend more money when they get off the transit systems.

Re: Germany's €9 transit ticket cuts 1.8 million tonnes of CO2

#38

Post by kuschku »

izacus wrote: post #32
robertlagrant wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK road tax is based on your car's CO2 emissions. The problem is when the VW scandal broke, lots of people had bought diesels to lower their CO2 and suddenly diesels were evil and needed disincentivising. So the problem is anything like that isn't cleverly designed enough to be trustworthy, or even if it is, political whim could still overturn it.

I seriously doubt diesels were ever bought to "lower their CO2 emissions". At no point in time there was ever doubt that diesels were the more polluting option. People bought diesels due to their lower consumption per 100km and lower diesel prices in comparison to 95.

> I seriously doubt diesels were ever bought to "lower their CO2 emissions". At no point in time there was ever doubt that diesels were the more polluting option.

That's two entirely independent statements. VW Diesels do produce lower CO2 emissions. But when building an engine, there's a tradeoff: the leaner it burns, the lower the CO2 emissions and the higher the NOx emissions.

The Diesel scandal was about NOx.

Re: Germany's €9 transit ticket cuts 1.8 million tonnes of CO2

#39

Post by physicsguy »

In the UK they're making it so that from Jan-March all bus journeys will be £2. I live just outside of a city (in a different county) and a single ticket is about £4 at the moment to where I work. I'll definitely be getting the bus for that period.

Re: Germany's €9 transit ticket cuts 1.8 million tonnes of CO2

#40

Post by shafyy »

jupp0r wrote: post #28

This has cost the German government 2.5 billion Euros [1]. That’s $1388 per metric ton of CO2. Current direct air capture technology is estimated to cost between $132 and $342 per metric ton [2]. If the goal was to reduce carbon emissions, this was a giant waste of money, even compared to the most expensive forms of carbon reduction. [1] https://www.stuttgarter-zeitung.de/inhalt.9-euro-ticket-kost... [2] https://www.…

Direct air capture hasn't been proven to work at scale. And the key thing we need to do is to reduce emissions, which is done exactly by incentives like this. Was the €9 ticket perfect? No, but it was a good first shot, now we have data and can improve.

Furthermore, as others have stated, this was not even the primary goal of this program.

Post reply on HN