Why companies are interested in Myers-Briggs types • Hacker News Board

Re: Why companies are interested in Myers-Briggs types

#201

Post by goto11 » Thu, Sep 08, 2022, 6:08 AM UTC

ncmncm wrote: post #78

People are always imagining they have "debunked" Myers-Briggs. All they demonstrate is that they didn't understand what it's for. What it's good for is to help you understand how people who think differently than you do are often not wrong. Other people are super great at things you can't hardly do at all, for reasons. Putting people good at X doing Y instead is a formula for dissatisfaction for those putting and tho…

Myers-Briggs did not discover the idea that people have different personalities and different strengths and weaknesses. Nobody is questioning this.

Like Astrology, Meyers-Briggs is a specific system of categorizing personality types with a lot of lore about how the types interacts. There is no evidence that MB is any better than astrology or the theory of humors or any other arbitrary categorization for this purpose.

Btw is your comment implying that only certain MBTI types are able to become musicians or pilots or engineers? Because that at lease a falsifiable statement which is quite interesting.

Re: Why companies are interested in Myers-Briggs types

#202

Post by BalinKing » Thu, Sep 08, 2022, 6:27 AM UTC

nicoburns wrote: post #59

YurgenJurgensen wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The types themselves are also nonsense. There's sixteen of them, and all sixteen have significant tendencies in all four axes. It seems extremely unlikely that someone would always have a tendency in every axis all the time, so the types themselves are set up wrong. They're not even acknowledging the possibility of an inconclusive result. It's also easy to see the financial incentive of removing the possibility for s…

A couple of points: - The types do not indicate the degree of tendency in each axis. That can vary within a type and isn't captured by the type code at all. The types just indicate the direction. There is some evidence that children tend to have more extreme preferences which balance out people mature. - Have you seen Daniel Kahneman's Thinking Fast and Slow? The "fast" and "slow" thinking described there is very sim…

I don’t know how relevant it is to your particular point, but IIRC Kahneman realized a few years ago that some of /Thinking Fast and Slow/'s conclusions (specifically on priming) relied on underpowered studies: https://replicationindex.com/2017/02/02/reconstruction-of-a-....

Re: Why companies are interested in Myers-Briggs types

#203

Post by hcks » Thu, Sep 08, 2022, 6:37 AM UTC

enasterosophes wrote: post #183

heliodor wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To put it more mathematically, personality traits lie on a normal distribution. Most people are in the middle. Myers-Briggs turns traits into binary options, which does not match reality.

So you would have trouble telling whether a given person is taller or shorter than average?

Thanks for illustrating what parent comment said: it would be ridiculous to categorise only between “tall” and “short” when most people would fall into “kinda average”

Re: Why companies are interested in Myers-Briggs types

#204

Post by lliamander » Thu, Sep 08, 2022, 6:41 AM UTC

NalNezumi wrote: post #192

It's horrifying that some comments are seriously arguing for the benefit of Myers Briggs here. It's a cold reminder that HN is not a rational place as a lot of us like to think; there's believers here that believe in psychology equivalent of flat earth, and can read about "confirmation bias" but not see it in themselves even after clearly writing it down for us! A friendly reminder of the beating this dead horse that…

> there's believers here that believe in psychology equivalent of flat earth

That is clearly hyperbole, as is the equivocation with horoscopes mentioned in the article you linked. In both instances, the argument is hurting your case.

Look, I agree that the big 5 is superior. But the MBTI traits are clearly rough first approximations of traits discovered by more rigorous science - not just pure superstition.

Re: Why companies are interested in Myers-Briggs types

#205

Post by helsinkiandrew » Thu, Sep 08, 2022, 6:45 AM UTC

vlod wrote: post #79

Interestingly, the CIA spy that Lex Fridman had on [0] his podcast said that all the spy agencies use MBTI and that he (interviewee) thinks they are of value. [0] https://youtu.be/T3FC7qIAGZk?t=6127

The CIA also uses polygraphs which have been found "inaccurate, may be defeated by countermeasures, and are an imperfect or invalid means of assessing truthfulness"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygraph#Effectiveness

Re: Why companies are interested in Myers-Briggs types

#206

Post by mellavora » Thu, Sep 08, 2022, 7:11 AM UTC

themodelplumber wrote: post #2

> And that’s it—there’s simply very little data on how well the Myers-Briggs (and other type-based personality tests) measures personality and even less on how it might predict job performance. I was surprised there wasn't any mention of a very interesting issue here, i.e. MBTI and other typological instruments come with user manuals, training, etc., and those materials specifically say "do not use this for hiring".…

> basically the deeper theory is that any given personality type is similar to an illness in a lot of ways.

Yet oddly enough just about everyone has at least one MB type.

Re: Why companies are interested in Myers-Briggs types

#207

Post by ncmncm » Thu, Sep 08, 2022, 7:30 AM UTC

raisin_churn wrote: post #200

bitmunk wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying "You just don't get it" isn't really an argument. The only times I've seen Myers-Briggs used are either as harmless entertainment ("Look at this meme. I'm such a INFP, tee hee.") or in Brazil-esque corporate settings where it could actually affect your employment ("Sorry, we were hoping for a XSTX person"). Sure, my experience is purely anecdotal much like most people here, but you could've shown us a countere…

Indeed, they undermine their own argument that it has utility: "People naturally try to sort themselves into work that they are good at, where how they think works best." So why then would an employer need to know your allegedly accurate MBTI, when your application for the job and presumably effort in developing and maintaining the necessary skills already indicates that you're applying to the work you're good at?

Who said it was a thing for employers? You only prove my point.

Re: Why companies are interested in Myers-Briggs types

#208

Post by ncmncm » Thu, Sep 08, 2022, 7:37 AM UTC

goto11 wrote: post #201

ncmncm wrote: post #78

People are always imagining they have "debunked" Myers-Briggs. All they demonstrate is that they didn't understand what it's for. What it's good for is to help you understand how people who think differently than you do are often not wrong. Other people are super great at things you can't hardly do at all, for reasons. Putting people good at X doing Y instead is a formula for dissatisfaction for those putting and tho…

Myers-Briggs did not discover the idea that people have different personalities and different strengths and weaknesses. Nobody is questioning this. Like Astrology, Meyers-Briggs is a specific system of categorizing personality types with a lot of lore about how the types interacts. There is no evidence that MB is any better than astrology or the theory of humors or any other arbitrary categorization for this purpose.…

> Nobody is questioning this

Yet, when somebody puts in work to systematize that understanding, you do. If you know a better way to organize the knowledge, publish that.

> evidence that MB is any better than astrology or the theory of humors

Better at what? Invariably whoever imagined they are debunking it shows how little predictive value it has about behavior, proving only that they have no conception of what it is for.

People have often imagined they were debunking astrology by showing that sun signs have no predictive value, and completely missing that the signs are purely a randomization device: if they had any predictive value, they would be a failure.

Re: Why companies are interested in Myers-Briggs types

#209

Post by cttet » Thu, Sep 08, 2022, 8:34 AM UTC

NalNezumi wrote: post #192

It's horrifying that some comments are seriously arguing for the benefit of Myers Briggs here. It's a cold reminder that HN is not a rational place as a lot of us like to think; there's believers here that believe in psychology equivalent of flat earth, and can read about "confirmation bias" but not see it in themselves even after clearly writing it down for us! A friendly reminder of the beating this dead horse that…

Just for this argument: "Research shows that as many as 75 percent of personality test-takers receive a different result when tested again."

There is an easy counter: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2015.18248

The other two still holds for me though. But Big Five is not any better IMHO, it can be a trait for psychological health, but definitely not for personality.

Re: Why companies are interested in Myers-Briggs types

#210

Post by wawjgreen » Thu, Sep 08, 2022, 8:41 AM UTC

problems with MBT:

1- it contradicts the multiple-selves theory (which is based on science and backed by personal experience and observation.). You have your "good" self, your "private" self, your "evil" self, your "social" self, etc.

2- the human personality is subject to many variables to behave consistently across any given length of time (Bandura's formula). Same settings with a different music background and level of blood in our sugars might produce different outcomes.

3- the illusion of appearances: a person might appear as x but actually be y. I appear an extrovert but I am deeply introverted; it is not my fault that the people around me can't see it.

4- people are trainable. any set of traits and personality adjustments can be taught and trained under rigorous conditions. I became a dog person in 2021 even though for 30+ years my hair would stand on my back when the cutest puppy would appear in my social radius. Now I actively seek the most badass dogs others walk outside and pet them.

5- deep prejudicial and otherwise core personality traits are set in childhood, in the "parent ego state" and are not easy to remove or deprogram. These core traits stem from the millions of situations and interplay of various variables in childhood. labeling them into five neat categories is like classifying the plant world into five "basic" types of plants (which is totally unscientific) and naive.