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Is engineering management bullshit?

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301–310 of 425 posts

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#301

This is such a tired take. It's part of a steady stream of commentary that reads something like "non-engineering-role X is bullshit." Here, we see engineers reduce the contributions of such common roles as: Product Manger, Program/Project Manager, Scrum Master, Marketer, CEO, etc., as fungible or run by the biggest boogeyman of all, the dreaded MBA. These arguments most typically result from not an inability, but an…

"...actual smart people can make real contributions in non-engineering roles."

Can they? Certainly. Do they? Well, not as often as you might like.

I used to work for a government contractor who had what I liked to think of as a "butts in seats" strategy. The contractor got paid by taking something like 50% off the top of what the customer paid for the employees (back when I was a contractor in industry, that was more like 15% but that is neither here nor there). The "complexity and nuance" that goes into running that business for a maximal profit involves keeping the direct customers happy---and they're managers, not users---while having as many employees as possible. You need to ride the line between leaving money on the table and having so much broken that higher levels of the customer start to get upset. Laying down narratives is a very important part of that process.

This isn't, however, limited to government contracting. I've ridden quite a few projects into the ground in industry because the goals and incentives of Product Managers, Program Managers, etc., were not aligned with the goal of a successful project simply because there are many ways to be a successful manager and a track record of successful products is not the easiest.

Yes, they were all smart people. Many were even likable, skilled leaders. But if your goal as an engineer is to be part of a successful product and not to be a well-rewarded part of a successful manager's organization, then you will not be happy. Is that what you mean by "professional immaturity"?

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#302

This is such a tired take. It's part of a steady stream of commentary that reads something like "non-engineering-role X is bullshit." Here, we see engineers reduce the contributions of such common roles as: Product Manger, Program/Project Manager, Scrum Master, Marketer, CEO, etc., as fungible or run by the biggest boogeyman of all, the dreaded MBA. These arguments most typically result from not an inability, but an…

[deleted]

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#303

Most of the "engineering managers" I've had to work under have been utter bullshit. Didn't learn anything from them (technically or in regards to leadership) and were there merely to check a box, play babysitter and/or sit in meetings all day that had zero impact on our work streams. The few who did have impact (1) were skilled engineers in their own right and were able to translate that into more management, (2) und…

The big secret is most engineers would be better off moving into management ASAP. It pays better, less intellectually demanding, and is far easier than claimed. Management failures are often pinned to their direct reports.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a manager, that's a secretary, which is my point. Engineering groups don't need managers, they need lead engineers and clerical staff, similar to a group of lawyers or doctors.

I'm curious what difference you see between a "manager" and a "lead engineer".

A manager often isn't even an engineer, and a lead engineer often doesn't have a manager role.

Edit: To clarify lead engineer, they have authority over technical decisions, not people management.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#305
post #105
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been a manager and a manager of managers and I think we really do not have good data on whether not "management" as a profession in software engineering really adds value. We're bad at quantifying the value of engineers, and we're worse at quantifying the value of managers. There are definitely a wide range of non-engineering skills required to produce good software but that doesn't automatically justify the e…

I can justify it quite easily. Take it away and see what happens.

I imagine bikeshedding galore lol.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#306
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please, there's a reason why those comments exist - because more terrible managers exist than those "good ones" that you allude do. I would posit a guess that most, if not all, engineers on HN have had to live through at least one terrible manager that has soured/tainted the position. Speaking for myself, I've lived through many and it's a miserable experience to be under these people. Nobody is saying that the fu…

That’s silly. Managers exist on the same spectrum as any other role. Most are about average. Some are better, some are worse. Same with engineers themselves. These articles are undoubtedly written by people who have never been managers themselves, and frankly just don’t have any idea what the job is for. Which is fine - everyone starts that way. But to then assume the job is useless is classic sign of imaturity. > No…

> Managers exist on the same spectrum as any other role.

Anecdotally, I've met a lot more people who don't want to manage (again) than people who don't want to be ICs. I think that indicates a different "spectrum" of humanity.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#307

> Despite years of effort, and a market value for individual software companies of over trillions of dollars, we’ve yet to formalize a way of measuring how effective a developer is or isn’t. I am not a developer, but I studied CS until my eyes bled, and I've been watching you guys. Seems to me you (royal, developers) have already long figured this out with 2 metrics. The first isn't how many lines of code, but the op…

Really the only two dimensions that matter for development as a function are time to market at a sufficient quality, and resources needed to maintain the codebase at sufficient quality once delivered. Any metrics about individual devs needs to support one of those two group goals. The fewest lines of codes is an ok metric in that it often means more maintainable. But it can mean less maintainable if it's too cute. It…

> Faster code is an irrelevant distraction 90% of the time.

Time is money. Say a piece of code is executed zillions of times by hundreds of millions of customers. What would seem like a negligible increase in results, even a few milliseconds, adds up at scale. Sparing resources translates to saving money, both in energy expenditure and in squeezing in as many transactions in a minute as possible.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#308
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Peter Principle is just an idea someone had (and intended to be satire) and not an actual factual reflection of the way the world works.

The fact that it's satire doesn't make it untrue.

Not just that. The fact that it's satire means it's at least somewhat true.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that it's satire doesn't make it untrue.

However if the satyrical speaker did not believe that they had a duty of care to the truth, then it is bullshit[1]. [1] Prof. Harry Frankfurt, On Bullshit. http://www2.csudh.edu/ccauthen/576f12/frankfurt__harry_-_on_...

Not really, that does not follow. It is possible to speak the truth by accident.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who should be held responsible for engineering projects or initiatives that require more than one engineer? Who should be tasked with originating and prioritizing and staffing such projects?

The technical team leader. Staffing is management/HR at the behest of and under the direction of the team lead.

> The technical team leader.

AKA the manager.

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