Is engineering management bullshit? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#271

Post by ChrisMarshallNY » Wed, Sep 07, 2022, 4:09 PM UTC

> Scientific Management

There's the problem, right there.

I'll just leave it at that...

I was an engineering manager for 25 years.

I hated almost every minute of it, but I'm pretty sure that I was able to justify my existence (indeed, as I worked for a Japanese company, I had to do a weekly QCD report, and I called it my "Justify Your Existence Report").

Way too much to go into detail, but the post seems to be the usual "Post something inflammatory, and watch the clicks come in" kind of thing.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#272

Post by commandlinefan » Wed, Sep 07, 2022, 4:10 PM UTC

koonsolo wrote: post #221

I think a lot here miss the main point of the article. Managers used to be smarter than their subordinates, so they could steer the work. With knowledge work, as soon as you turn manager, you're away from the knowledge. That means all of a sudden your subordinates are smarter than you. So where does that leave the manager? Well, as the article also kind of concludes, the manager is now at the service of the team. Big…

I'm reminded of football coaches. Some of them used to play football, but even then were rarely superstar players. They definitely can't suit up and take over for a missing player - yet they're held responsible for the wins and losses more than the players themselves, and the players have incredible respect and deference for what they do.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#273

Post by eequah9L » Wed, Sep 07, 2022, 4:11 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #158

sulam wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can justify it quite easily. Take it away and see what happens.

I've worked in a place without eng managers, product managers, scrum masters, various MBA people, you know... all those employees that a certain segment of HN thinks are useless. It was just Sales and Software Engineering, and the CEO, to whom everyone reported. It was the worst job I've ever had. Developers just developing, without interference from evil managers and clueless PMs! Amazing! The ideal work environment…

> nobody had time to [...] set up source control

Now wait, how do developers develop without source control?

As an individual contributor, I consider a number of things in that paragraph good practice. Specs, say. But source control? That's just so fundamentally basic that I lack vocabulary to express how essentially important I consider it to be. How does a team get anything done without one?

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#274

Post by gerash » Wed, Sep 07, 2022, 4:12 PM UTC

In my experience a good chunk of engineering managers were simply the greedy engineers who did not want or were not able to contribute technically and preferred to jump into management for an easier life and higher pay. That worked out for many of them which is one of the reason for dysfunction at some large tech companies.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#275

Post by feoren » Wed, Sep 07, 2022, 4:12 PM UTC

bonecrusher2102 wrote: post #6

This is such a tired take. It's part of a steady stream of commentary that reads something like "non-engineering-role X is bullshit." Here, we see engineers reduce the contributions of such common roles as: Product Manger, Program/Project Manager, Scrum Master, Marketer, CEO, etc., as fungible or run by the biggest boogeyman of all, the dreaded MBA. These arguments most typically result from not an inability, but an…

Instead of an ad-hominem attack against a strawman, can you actually address the points made by these people you're labeling as professionally immature and unwilling to understand these non-engineering roles? Can you actually provide anything that illustrates your point at all? Just calling us all immature children does nothing to change my mind; it only makes me think you're defensive because you know deep down that your role is actually truly worthless bullshit. How many hours per day do you spend in meetings?

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#276

Post by RunSet » Wed, Sep 07, 2022, 4:13 PM UTC

felizuno wrote: post #49

bonecrusher2102 wrote: post #6

This is such a tired take. It's part of a steady stream of commentary that reads something like "non-engineering-role X is bullshit." Here, we see engineers reduce the contributions of such common roles as: Product Manger, Program/Project Manager, Scrum Master, Marketer, CEO, etc., as fungible or run by the biggest boogeyman of all, the dreaded MBA. These arguments most typically result from not an inability, but an…

I work with a lot of technical founders who struggle to accept the inevitable truth that taking the time to specify, coordinate, and resource what they want to do leaves no time to be the one doing any of those things. They eventually solve this problem by hiring other engineers to focus on the implementation step while they keep everything on the straight and narrow. When the company grows and they run out of time t…

> Engineers who don't appreciate the role of the product/marketing/management layers don't seem to understand that if they had to take on those responsibilities it would leave them with no time left over to write any code. If nobody takes on those responsibilities

Spending on marketing is like building and maintaining a nuclear arsenal in this respect: It is to everyone's detriment (yes, everyone) but if the competition does it, you must also.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#277

Post by JonMR » Wed, Sep 07, 2022, 4:15 PM UTC

candiddevmike wrote: post #40

namdnay wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> sit in meetings all day that had zero impact on our work streams maybe the manager was busy in meetings all day in order to ensure you had zero impact on your work streams :) the role of an EM in a large organisation is in large part to be an "enterprise abstraction layer", ensuring the people in the team(s) can work in a way that is as close as possible to what they could do in a startup/solo project

That abstraction layer doesn't add value IMO, it modifies the message like a game of telephone.

Buffering, filtering, and mapping information has value. If that consumes a full day, every day, it can no longer be broadcast to every engineer.

It’s a nuanced thing. An EM should share accurate context, filter distractions, and deliver it in the most effective way for that team.

There’s also the shielding aspects in dysfunctional organizations which is a whole other thing.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#278

Post by alexashka » Wed, Sep 07, 2022, 4:16 PM UTC

RichardCNormos wrote: post #2

I'm a manager. This is a low-energy take on management, focused on the part of the job I call "keeping the spice flowing": knocking out tickets, landing key results, and coordinating with other teams. For a manager, this is all low-impact work. High impact management work isn't mentioned here. These are things like developing your people and networking. It's a lot of work to get somebody promoted, even if that person…

> It's a lot of work to get somebody promoted, even if that person is a well-known high performer

Is it? Why? Sounds like a problem created by managers to me.

> Networking with other managers, product managers, finance, IT... building influence with other parts of the company, this pays huge dividends for your team.

I sincerely hope no engineering manager acts or thinks this way, or they will soon be just another MBA manager who doesn't know anything, other than how to navigate among other MBAs who also, don't know anything.

Do you not get the problem with people who don't know anything besides politics being in charge of delivering real world products and services?

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#279

Post by mattkrause » Wed, Sep 07, 2022, 4:17 PM UTC

linuxftw wrote: post #194

tayo42 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My best experiences with managers were ones that did that. Just let me work and help me if I need it. I'll reach out if I do.

That's not a manager, that's a secretary, which is my point. Engineering groups don't need managers, they need lead engineers and clerical staff, similar to a group of lawyers or doctors.

I'm curious what difference you see between a "manager" and a "lead engineer".

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#280

Post by SergeAx » Wed, Sep 07, 2022, 4:17 PM UTC

> ’ve yet to formalize a way of measuring how effective a developer is or isn’t.

This is generally not true. Although there's no etalon SWE in Paris Chamber, it is extremely easy to measure relative performance of engineers in one team.

Saying that, the article itself is off the point and very click-baity. It's a pity to see links like that on HN's first page.