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Kiwi Farms has been removed from the Internet Archive

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Re: Kiwi Farms has been removed from the Internet Archive

#201

Post by bastawhiz »

_9xrb wrote: post #183
bastawhiz wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it ethical to keep snapshots of pages doxing people? Or dumps of bank account numbers? There's no way to both preserve that content publicly and also protect the victims.

There were no dumps of bank account numbers. As far as I saw, Kiwi Farms users posted only publicly-available info about thread subjects. In my opinion, certain categories of public yet personally-identifying information should be covered by US law in a way similar to HIPAA. However, that is not currently the case. Also, info like someone's phone number and home address are only a click away once you have their full…

It's easily verifiable that bank details were shared on KF. It's also easily verifiable to see that non-public information about folks was posted, especially when real details were posted about folks commonly known by their pseudonyms online.

Whether it's legal or not is unimportant. My question is for the internet archive: is it ethical for them to knowingly rehost dumps of PII? Just because it's public doesn't mean it's right for them to treat it like any other page. The goal of the KF users is to harass by putting that information out there: if IA rehosts that intentionally, they're making an active choice to further the goals of KF users.

Re: Kiwi Farms has been removed from the Internet Archive

#202

Post by redeeman »

Cr4shMyCar wrote: post #124
firstSpeaker wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. When there is a due process and it is done with the accordance of law that we are all supposed to abide. Not by unilateral decision of a tech CEO/Staff.

That's the problem though. Legal gears move slowly, and you know that Kiwifarms would've kept destroying people's lives and driving people to suicide until they got shut down. I would've preferred actual legal action rather than companies dropping KF because they're bad for business, but the end goal of getting them shut down is the same.

you think they are just gonna go "oh well it was a good run, let me go volunteer at the soup kitchen now"?

Re: Kiwi Farms has been removed from the Internet Archive

#203

Post by shitlord »

hnburnsy wrote: post #49

Well I guess there is now limited ways for someone to evaluate for themselves on whether KF was posting horrific content without significant moderation. Guess we at least have Taylor Lorenz to tell us exactly what is going on here in a full and unbiased way. Someone here at HN at least posted this link which told more of the story than I have seen anywhere else. Also search the HN archives (for now at least it seems)…

Fun fact: Taylor Lorenz's Twitter account is also excluded from the internet archive.

Re: Kiwi Farms has been removed from the Internet Archive

#204

Post by _9xrb »

hn92726819 wrote: post #178
helf wrote: post #110

Amazes me the number of people who cry foul when something like this occurs. “Waaa censorship! This is evil! The internet is collapsing! Omg!” 1. Archive.org probably has just disallowed access. Not outright purged. 2. Shit drops off the internet literally every day 3. It’s a site full of edgelord incels who have a history of being complete pieces of shit 4. This isn’t a precursor to some horrible dystopian future of…

I think kiwi farms should be taken offline because it’s a horrible site. What good is there in taking down the archive of it? Having archives of trump’s tweets was important after his twitter was removed so we could see what was there. There’s a difference between allowing people to use the site/post, and having a record of what was there.

They've documented various criminals, pedophiles, and rapists, such as child abuser Nick Bate:

https://lancasteronline.com/news/local/columbia-man-jailed-u...

https://archive.ph/Kmu6p

They've extensively documented actual alt-right figures such as neo-Nazi Nick Fuentes, who they consider one of their "lolcows." They also followed and recorded the activity of accused rapist Christine (formerly Christopher) Weston Chandler, the original "lolcow", though several users interacted with Chris over the years in ways that may have contributed to his/her decline:

https://lawandcrime.com/crime/sonichu-creator-has-been-arres...

They also discovered and documented Isabella Janke, allegedly the person most responsible for convincing Christine to abuse her mother, among other allegations:

https://archive.ph/3Ev0l

This truth of these allegations will likely come out at at Christine's upcoming trial, assuming enough evidence was preserved. Incidentally, Isabella's father Mike Janke has a professional relationship with Cloudflare CEO Matthew Prince:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1wio7sDDBA

Re: Kiwi Farms has been removed from the Internet Archive

#205

Post by _9xrb »

jjulius wrote: post #162
richbell wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're also forgetting the countless screenshots and other documentation that exists of KF from prior controversial incidents. Screenshots are not a trustworthy medium. Many of the articles published about Kiwi Farms contain significant factual errors and rarely cite sources for the claims they do make. For example, the CBC recently published an article claiming that the Christchurch shooter "revealed his intention…

>Screenshots are not a trustworthy medium. Sure. That's why it's likely that - again, I don't know how this still bears repeating in this comment chain - IA still has the site archived, just not publicly accessible.

The site was tried not in a court of law but in the court of public opinion. Removing evidence from the one court where it matters, especially as precedent for similar extralegal trials in the future, is harmful to the open web.

Re: Kiwi Farms has been removed from the Internet Archive

#206

Post by dragonwriter »

HereIGoAgain wrote: post #200
jjulius wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are demonstrating a clear failure to understand not only the magnitude of what occurs, and can occur, when someone is doxx'd, but also KiwiFarms' history as a party to specific incidents of suicide and external harassment as a result of said doxx'ing on that site.

Doxxing is not illegal, if posting publicly available info can even be called that. The only suicide that was actually blamed on the site by the victim, is someone nobody can show any official or direct evidence of's death. The second of the 3 alleged deaths, literally blamed the mental health system and becoming homeless the day before.. no mentions of kiwifarms.. It was online "allies" after the fact that made the…

> Doxxing is not illegal

This is true, in some jurisdictions, in the same sense that it is true that homicide is not illegal.

Doxxing with particular intent is illegal in those jurisdictions; e. g., California where Penal Code § 653.2 was adopted specifically to address harassment by doxxing.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio....

Re: Kiwi Farms has been removed from the Internet Archive

#207

Post by HereIGoAgain »

jjulius wrote: post #197
HereIGoAgain wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who's lives and what deaths? Most of the (3) people claimed to have died, didn't claim anything of the sort. (in fact the one that activists like to bring up most, who is actually dead, literally blamed the mental health system and being made homeless the day before) The one person who did blame them seems to have died without leaving any proof for official records of both the Japanese or American governments. Just t…

Do you, or do you not, feel that it is OK to doxx individuals in the manner that occurs on KiwiFarms? Why or why not?

My feelings are irrelevant to my arguing. No, or at least not unless there was a good reason... More importantly, doxxing isn't illegal and is done by major media and orgs. Not to mention it seems like ~95% of what is being called doxxing here is posting publicly available (usually posted the the person themselves) info.

And in the context of KF, harassment and even interacting is against the rules. Attempting to do anything illegal, making threats or swatting etc are literal instant bans with your info being handed over to law on request.

Re: Kiwi Farms has been removed from the Internet Archive

#208

Post by _9xrb »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #103
marginalia_nu wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anything, the reason there's such a controversy in the first place is that they've gotten far more attention than they wanted. This sort of activity is only possible while skulking in obscurity. Damnatio memoriae is devastating to a public figure, but it is doing KiwiFarms a huge favor. It lets them scurry away under some new rock and keep going under a new name. The worst thing you could do is probably just shine…

This whole campaign has been damning for the folks trying to take down kiwifarms. All of the evidence of their bad past behavior that used to be confined to one obscure site is now plastered all over the internet, and millions of people know about it. My personal semi-conspiracy theory on this is that the search warrant served on Keffals (no, not a SWAT call, a search warrant) contained some note that they got probab…

If you want a real conspiracy theory, recall that original and long-running KF thread subject Christine Weston Chandler was persuaded to incestuously assault her mother by a person named Isabella Janke. Kiwi Farms uncovered Isabella's history with Christine, and extensively documented her online activities to include allegations of extortion, CASM, and animal abuse:

https://archive.ph/3Ev0l

Now consider that Isabella's father Mike Janke is a former Navy SEAL who has a professional relationship with Matthew Prince, Cloudflare CEO:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1wio7sDDBA

These records have been wiped from the Internet Archive. I wonder how long they will remain on archive.ph.

Re: Kiwi Farms has been removed from the Internet Archive

#209

Post by klyrs »

gruez wrote: post #196
klyrs wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If somebody breaks into your house, you should wait for due process with accordance of law. Homeowners shouldn't make unilateral decisions about who is and is not legally allowed in their home.

except in this case, the owner of the "house" (website) is fine with the visitors. Instead, another organization (the HOA?) wants to kick out the owner because they don't like the visitors that he's inviting.

Point is, "the law" moves slower than emergencies unfold. Individuals and corporations have the right to enact and enforce their own rules on their own property, within reason.

Re: Kiwi Farms has been removed from the Internet Archive

#210

Post by HereIGoAgain »

dragonwriter wrote: post #206
HereIGoAgain wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doxxing is not illegal, if posting publicly available info can even be called that. The only suicide that was actually blamed on the site by the victim, is someone nobody can show any official or direct evidence of's death. The second of the 3 alleged deaths, literally blamed the mental health system and becoming homeless the day before.. no mentions of kiwifarms.. It was online "allies" after the fact that made the…

> Doxxing is not illegal This is true, in some jurisdictions, in the same sense that it is true that homicide is not illegal. Doxxing with particular intent is illegal in those jurisdictions; e. g., California where Penal Code § 653.2 was adopted specifically to address harassment by doxxing. https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio... .

There are exceptions but the point still mostly stands. Secondly, "with intent" the rules of the site explicitly forbid harassing or interacting so that's going to be quite a claim, even in those rare exceptions, to make let alone prove. Plus, a lot of what we are talking about isn't likely to qualify anyway since most of it is simply posting publicly available information, usually from the person themselves and still available from their accounts/SM etc.
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