Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Managers exist on the same spectrum as any other role. Most are about average. Some are better, some are worse. Same with engineers themselves. I do understand what OP said somewhat though. Mostly due to Peter's principle, thus, managers are not "about average" but "mostly incompetent". It is easier to promote people managers than ICs in growing organization, hence it is easier to play out Peter's principle in real…
The Peter Principle is just an idea someone had (and intended to be satire) and not an actual factual reflection of the way the world works.
Is engineering management bullshit?
181–190 of 425 posts
Re: Is engineering management bullshit?
#182The few I have had who were not capable of that were really ineffective. They didnt know how to handle top performers. They didnt know how to help low performers. They become managers of micro bits of information that they collected and passed up to their manager so despite the results of their team they can say they were doing xyz.
It was hell. I always found they gave useless advice too. Have a work problem that isnt some type of personal problem? Well they cant help because they dont know/understand what you do or how to help.
Re: Is engineering management bullshit?
#183I've worked at companies with no managers and it's worked fine. At one place I worked we basically just had a sales teams, an engineering team and a CEO. There were no managers. The sales people raised tickets for bugs and requests for features that would make their lives easier, these would then get a glance over and approval by either a lead dev or the CEO and someone would pick up the ticket. As engineers we would also raise tickets when we identified areas of the system we could improve.
This worked really well and it was an extremely efficient way to work for us but what we gained in efficiency we lacked in accountability and scalability. But when you're a company with less than 50 employees neither matters too much.
For large enterprises and public companies there's clearly far more value in having managers and various other non-engineers roles. For one as an engineer I literally don't want to be responsible for any big non-technical decisions in large companies which provide critical products and services. But in larger companies there's just far more value in having a clear hierarchy of accountability.
That said, I do think a lot of small companies think they need managers when they don't. And I think the reason they believe they need these roles is just because that's how it's done in the larger corps.
To some extent this might be a matter of personal preferences too. I tend to like working independently and quite like being given fuzzy requirements. I know I've worked with some devs who prefer working with well defined requirements and get uncomfortable when making decisions that haven't been formally approved. Depending on your engineers and culture the value of managers might vary.
Re: Is engineering management bullshit?
#184Earlier quoted context omitted.
That’s silly. Managers exist on the same spectrum as any other role. Most are about average. Some are better, some are worse. Same with engineers themselves. These articles are undoubtedly written by people who have never been managers themselves, and frankly just don’t have any idea what the job is for. Which is fine - everyone starts that way. But to then assume the job is useless is classic sign of imaturity. > No…
> Most are about average Surely you meant to communicate something different here and not a mathematical impossibility. Do you mean most fall within 1 standard deviation of the average? That still means half the managers you encounter would be below the average quality assuming a normal distribution (which it’s clearly not - skills tend to follow the power law). Most engineers are actually decidedly quite bad at soft…
Re: Is engineering management bullshit?
#185They really helped the engineers save time in coordination while not getting in the way.
I think the key was that management didn't tell us what to do -- they told us what they company as a whole wanted to accomplish and how our team fit into that puzzle, and then we figured out the details.
Re: Is engineering management bullshit?
#186Earlier quoted context omitted.
Good way to bash that down is to ask 'would you want their role?' It makes them stop and think what does that person really do and they usually do not want to do it at all.
I don't want the janitor's role either, but that person isn't in charge of me. Engineering managers are glorified secretaries. We should replace them with actual secretaries that are subordinate to engineers.
Re: Is engineering management bullshit?
#187Engineers that have to do management and paperwork stuff cry that they're so busy with paperwork that they can't engineer. So management hires a guy for them and they cry about how that guy doesn't do anything.
That bullshit paperwork was probably created by a manager in the first place. It's a self replicating problem.
Re: Is engineering management bullshit?
#188This is such a tired take. It's part of a steady stream of commentary that reads something like "non-engineering-role X is bullshit." Here, we see engineers reduce the contributions of such common roles as: Product Manger, Program/Project Manager, Scrum Master, Marketer, CEO, etc., as fungible or run by the biggest boogeyman of all, the dreaded MBA. These arguments most typically result from not an inability, but an…
You clearly only read the first third of the (admittedly) somewhat roundabout and meandering commentary. I know because your comment was what I was thinking until about a third of the way through, when I realized that that was not at all what this person is saying.
Re: Is engineering management bullshit?
#189Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Do doctors have managers? Yes. If a doctor is working in a hospital, there are most certainly managers. Obviously not "technical" managers in that they're doctors themselves or the doctor's "boss" but in that there are managers who are co-ordinating workforce, priorities, staffing, supplies etc etc. This is very much a thing and is more broad than engineering managers but is an incredibly important task so the dail…
Are managers of doctors saying ridiculous things like you need to only seem patients 30 and up this week, or your not diagnosing enough strep throat.
Instead they have to force doctors to break bad news to patients' relatives or do it themselves, get signatures from both parties for procedures, coordinate in/out patient streams, listen to doctors demand equipment and medicines and face upper management denying them their requests and tons of other such bullshit. Medical insurance and its intricacies is a whole big ball game that they have to constantly play with so that's fun
Re: Is engineering management bullshit?
#190Earlier quoted context omitted.
I guess the managers have found this comment. Once anyone notices when a manager takes vacation, then I'll consider it a vital part of any job
Why do you assume that anyone notices yours?