Yes and no. Depends on the manager.
Is engineering management bullshit?
141–150 of 425 posts
Re: Is engineering management bullshit?
#142This is such a tired take. It's part of a steady stream of commentary that reads something like "non-engineering-role X is bullshit." Here, we see engineers reduce the contributions of such common roles as: Product Manger, Program/Project Manager, Scrum Master, Marketer, CEO, etc., as fungible or run by the biggest boogeyman of all, the dreaded MBA. These arguments most typically result from not an inability, but an…
> It's just personal and professional immaturity.
Not so sure about that. In the beginning of my career I looked up greatly to a lot of people in these roles. The older I get the more that has faded. Truth is I can do their jobs fine, but they can’t do mine; yet they have a tendency to look down on me.
(I’m in Sweden though, and the MBAs still have a very strong grip on the Nordics. Might be a different social dynamic in the US.)
Re: Is engineering management bullshit?
#143Earlier quoted context omitted.
That’s silly. Managers exist on the same spectrum as any other role. Most are about average. Some are better, some are worse. Same with engineers themselves. These articles are undoubtedly written by people who have never been managers themselves, and frankly just don’t have any idea what the job is for. Which is fine - everyone starts that way. But to then assume the job is useless is classic sign of imaturity. > No…
The 'average' manager may indeed be a net-negative, much like the average car crash. > frankly just don’t have any idea what the job is for We know what the job is for, but maybe there's no actual value there. Do doctors have managers? Do lawyers have managers? No, they might report to some administrative body, but they mostly work on contract or in teams. The 'communicate with customers' nonsense is delegated to low…
> Do doctors have managers?
Yes. If a doctor is working in a hospital, there are most certainly managers. Obviously not "technical" managers in that they're doctors themselves or the doctor's "boss" but in that there are managers who are co-ordinating workforce, priorities, staffing, supplies etc etc. This is very much a thing and is more broad than engineering managers but is an incredibly important task so the daily admin work does not come to a doctor who is probably prioritising saving lives and helping people
> The 'communicate with customers' nonsense is delegated to lower-paid clerical staff, not 'managers.'
This is incredibly demeaning of people in hospitals who actually have to do these jobs. There's a massive amount of work required here and it is by no means "clerical". When "customers" literally have their lives in a doctor's hands, the complexity increases hundredfold. There's legal sensitivities, paperwork, spending, collections and so much more stuff involved and this is not even counting the kinds of things they need to do which involves interfacing with patients and their kin about sensitive matters. This is not simply "admin work". This is critical, life saving stuff
Re: Is engineering management bullshit?
#144Earlier quoted context omitted.
Isn’t that true for everything though? More bad devs exist than good one? I guess a manager could make the same claim that devs are making his life miserable.
The power dynamic is completely different. Managers have the ability to hire/fire, guide technical decisions (usually for the worse) and set the tone for the team since its "their" team. The team itself has very little recourse over a bad manager.
They can quit. I promise you as a manager I spend at least half my time trying to keep developers happy and engaged because losing even one of them will cost the team way, way more in productivity than indulging somebody who wants to implement a perhaps-overengineered solution.
I don't know how it is everywhere, but in my neck of the woods good developers are hard to recruit and expensive to lose - they have a lot of leverage and they know it.
Re: Is engineering management bullshit?
#145Earlier quoted context omitted.
Oh please, there's a reason why those comments exist - because more terrible managers exist than those "good ones" that you allude do. I would posit a guess that most, if not all, engineers on HN have had to live through at least one terrible manager that has soured/tainted the position. Speaking for myself, I've lived through many and it's a miserable experience to be under these people. Nobody is saying that the fu…
That’s silly. Managers exist on the same spectrum as any other role. Most are about average. Some are better, some are worse. Same with engineers themselves. These articles are undoubtedly written by people who have never been managers themselves, and frankly just don’t have any idea what the job is for. Which is fine - everyone starts that way. But to then assume the job is useless is classic sign of imaturity. > No…
Maybe these articles are written by people who have never been managers themselves. I'd also posit that most of the defense of the position comes from managers. Do you not recognize the irony in this?
I'm sure you're aware of what they say: Its difficult to get someone to understand something when their paycheck depends on it. Do you have the self-awareness to recognize that this, alone, is a huge reason why managers immediately come to the defense of their position?
I've been in the industry for 20 years now. I've worked with good EMs; I've worked with bad EMs; I've been an EM (less often). That spectrum isn't even relevant to the underlying assertion that the core definition of the role is invalid. Its extremely rare to work with an EM whose entire scope of responsibilities wouldn't be more productively served by a peer PM. The only advantage to an EM title is in the organizational power structure, which is far too often leveraged to abuse their reports by trading quality output and mentorship for more working hours, burnout, and Jira graphs.
Re: Is engineering management bullshit?
#146Earlier quoted context omitted.
Over the first 10 years of a an engineers career they might only be exposed to a few different management roles. It's possible that the manager isn't fulfilling the actual role so what you have left with is just the distraction. Regardless if the manager is helping the team they almost always drain resources to aggregate information that they can synthesize upstream. It's a system that is so fragile it's not hard to…
> they almost always drain resources to aggregate information Here’s an idea: Provide this information before they have to ask, when it’s convenient for you. Like between tasks. Took a 5min break? Move the damn story over to done. Got stuck and seeking clarity but are blocked? Leave a quick comment. If your manager has to ask what’s going on, you’re not communicating enough.
That is technically an idea.
Re: Is engineering management bullshit?
#147Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have been a manager and a manager of managers and I think we really do not have good data on whether not "management" as a profession in software engineering really adds value. We're bad at quantifying the value of engineers, and we're worse at quantifying the value of managers. There are definitely a wide range of non-engineering skills required to produce good software but that doesn't automatically justify the e…
I can justify it quite easily. Take it away and see what happens.
I've worked for months while they hired a new manager, and we just had less meetings.
Re: Is engineering management bullshit?
#148Re: Is engineering management bullshit?
#149Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have been a manager and a manager of managers and I think we really do not have good data on whether not "management" as a profession in software engineering really adds value. We're bad at quantifying the value of engineers, and we're worse at quantifying the value of managers. There are definitely a wide range of non-engineering skills required to produce good software but that doesn't automatically justify the e…
I can justify it quite easily. Take it away and see what happens.
What happens is that an otherwise productive engineer has to step up and perform the role, but without any recognition of the extra responsibilities or any reduction in expectations of their individual contributions.
So then they find a job somewhere else and another otherwise productive engineer has to step up.....
Meanwhile the other engineers continue on blissfully unaware, patting themselves on their backs for how they don't need to be managed.
Re: Is engineering management bullshit?
#150In my 20s I'd agree with the premise.
Now that I've seen high performers deviate from their job and make mistakes in the core role, I understand that even good workers benefit from managers.
I can even say the same thing about program management.
If communication is good, you don't need these as much, but big companies lack the ability to communicate effectively.