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Is engineering management bullshit?

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Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#121

Post by Thursday24 »

Thursday24 wrote: post #97

I'd say: No, not at all! Read about Admiral Rickover. He built the first practical nuclear submarine in the world, for the US navy, in record time of 3 years. He cleared bureaucratic hurdles, played the politics when needed, kept tight control, delved deep into the technicalities of the project, recruited and trained a large number of people into the program, and ultimately made the project successful. Dig deeper int…

However, Rickover was deeply against non technical people managing technical people in the organization. One is reminded of the Newton quote:

"Errors are not in the art but in the artificer"

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#122

Post by mrits »

felizuno wrote: post #49
bonecrusher2102 wrote: post #6

This is such a tired take. It's part of a steady stream of commentary that reads something like "non-engineering-role X is bullshit." Here, we see engineers reduce the contributions of such common roles as: Product Manger, Program/Project Manager, Scrum Master, Marketer, CEO, etc., as fungible or run by the biggest boogeyman of all, the dreaded MBA. These arguments most typically result from not an inability, but an…

I work with a lot of technical founders who struggle to accept the inevitable truth that taking the time to specify, coordinate, and resource what they want to do leaves no time to be the one doing any of those things. They eventually solve this problem by hiring other engineers to focus on the implementation step while they keep everything on the straight and narrow. When the company grows and they run out of time t…

Over the first 10 years of a an engineers career they might only be exposed to a few different management roles. It's possible that the manager isn't fulfilling the actual role so what you have left with is just the distraction.

Regardless if the manager is helping the team they almost always drain resources to aggregate information that they can synthesize upstream. It's a system that is so fragile it's not hard to see why we have an industry full of people that experience this.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#123

Post by linuxftw »

rco8786 wrote: post #42
halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please, there's a reason why those comments exist - because more terrible managers exist than those "good ones" that you allude do. I would posit a guess that most, if not all, engineers on HN have had to live through at least one terrible manager that has soured/tainted the position. Speaking for myself, I've lived through many and it's a miserable experience to be under these people. Nobody is saying that the fu…

That’s silly. Managers exist on the same spectrum as any other role. Most are about average. Some are better, some are worse. Same with engineers themselves. These articles are undoubtedly written by people who have never been managers themselves, and frankly just don’t have any idea what the job is for. Which is fine - everyone starts that way. But to then assume the job is useless is classic sign of imaturity. > No…

The 'average' manager may indeed be a net-negative, much like the average car crash.

> frankly just don’t have any idea what the job is for

We know what the job is for, but maybe there's no actual value there.

Do doctors have managers? Do lawyers have managers? No, they might report to some administrative body, but they mostly work on contract or in teams. The 'communicate with customers' nonsense is delegated to lower-paid clerical staff, not 'managers.'

What engineers need is low-level clerical people to handle the day to day comms with others outside the org. We don't need managers, unskilled labor needs managers.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#124

Post by ChrisRR »

bonecrusher2102 wrote: post #6

This is such a tired take. It's part of a steady stream of commentary that reads something like "non-engineering-role X is bullshit." Here, we see engineers reduce the contributions of such common roles as: Product Manger, Program/Project Manager, Scrum Master, Marketer, CEO, etc., as fungible or run by the biggest boogeyman of all, the dreaded MBA. These arguments most typically result from not an inability, but an…

I agree. It feels like half of programming posts are just the same 10 topics discussed over and over

Yes we know management metrics can't predict every end date, we know agile doesn't solve every problem, we know blockchain is a solution without a problem, we know code complete and the mythical man month are some of the best programming books.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#125

Post by zuppy »

0xedd wrote: post #83
bonecrusher2102 wrote: post #6

This is such a tired take. It's part of a steady stream of commentary that reads something like "non-engineering-role X is bullshit." Here, we see engineers reduce the contributions of such common roles as: Product Manger, Program/Project Manager, Scrum Master, Marketer, CEO, etc., as fungible or run by the biggest boogeyman of all, the dreaded MBA. These arguments most typically result from not an inability, but an…

Quoted post unavailable.

what you guys fail to understand is that the priorities at the micro level, are not the priorities at the macro level. of course any developer would like to prioritize having perfect code, latest tools, no interruptions, but money needs to come from some place, on time and you have to find a balance in what you put your focus on. that's what a good manager does.

it doesn't matter if you have the best product in the market, if the competition releases before you and has obtained all the clients. for the client, the task of moving to a slight better solution may not cover the cost.

just because people have other jobs, it does not make them stupid. of course, what i've said in here is over simplified, there are a lot of other jobs required in order to have a healthy, viable product with clients and cash flow.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#126

Post by ir77 »

jschveibinz wrote: post #35

Engineering management is not bullshit in my opinion. It is, and always been, an organization-specific role. This leads to the ambiguities that can be frustrating. There are two distinct roles in an engineering organization: staffing, process and engineering resources (indirect), and product/project development and delivery (direct). Relegating staffing, process and resource decisions to non-engineers (e.g. HR) is no…

your reply echos my reply and working in a matrix organization. are there terrible managers -- yes, but in a well functioning organization with definitive role a manager should be as you describe and not what is written in the article.

what's crazy to me are all the comments here that echo what the article is saying where managers seem to be some sort of rulers and be all in an oganization, which would totally suck and i'm glad i don't work somewhere like that.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#127

Post by dominotw »

bonecrusher2102 wrote: post #6

This is such a tired take. It's part of a steady stream of commentary that reads something like "non-engineering-role X is bullshit." Here, we see engineers reduce the contributions of such common roles as: Product Manger, Program/Project Manager, Scrum Master, Marketer, CEO, etc., as fungible or run by the biggest boogeyman of all, the dreaded MBA. These arguments most typically result from not an inability, but an…

Managment offers an escape route to people who struggle with tech competency. Just grind it out for a few years a dev, then transition into management. This is a standard formula for years and i've seen many many people follow this.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#128

Post by scombridae »

dxf wrote: post #75

Very long time Engineering Manager here. Engineering Management is not bullshit, though there are many bad Engineering Managers out there, even at companies (like Google, where I've been an EM for over 6 years) that strive to build and support Engineering Managers. Google itself did research into the question of, "Do Engineering Managers matter?" The answer was Yes: Google set out to determine what makes a manager gr…

Most companies are 10% difference makers, and 90% paid interns. To the extent those interns need to feel like they're contributing, yes, managers are important.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#129

Post by paxys »

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #13
bonecrusher2102 wrote: post #6

This is such a tired take. It's part of a steady stream of commentary that reads something like "non-engineering-role X is bullshit." Here, we see engineers reduce the contributions of such common roles as: Product Manger, Program/Project Manager, Scrum Master, Marketer, CEO, etc., as fungible or run by the biggest boogeyman of all, the dreaded MBA. These arguments most typically result from not an inability, but an…

Oh please, there's a reason why those comments exist - because more terrible managers exist than those "good ones" that you allude do. I would posit a guess that most, if not all, engineers on HN have had to live through at least one terrible manager that has soured/tainted the position. Speaking for myself, I've lived through many and it's a miserable experience to be under these people. Nobody is saying that the fu…

I'd wager the percent of terrible managers is the same as that of terrible engineers. We all have worked with such coworkers at some point in our careers. Yet no one ever turns around and says "the engineering role is bullshit", simply because that would invalidate their own careers.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#130

Post by agentultra »

I’ve been on both sides. I spent a few years as an engineering manager. The majority of my career as a software developer. It’s not a bullshit job.

It’s sometimes a bullshit management job. Like working for the benefit of engineers on your team who view your role as bullshit. And dealing with negotiating between marketing, sales, founders, and being the voice for engineering. There’s a lot of bullshit there some times.

I appreciate good managers. It’s a tough job. You don’t always know the right thing to say but when you get it wrong people really make you pay for it. It takes resolve and pragmatism to step in front and take the brunt of responsibility for the teams output and shining the light of success on your team and away from yourself.

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