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Is engineering management bullshit?

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Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#101

Post by m12k »

bonecrusher2102 wrote: post #6

This is such a tired take. It's part of a steady stream of commentary that reads something like "non-engineering-role X is bullshit." Here, we see engineers reduce the contributions of such common roles as: Product Manger, Program/Project Manager, Scrum Master, Marketer, CEO, etc., as fungible or run by the biggest boogeyman of all, the dreaded MBA. These arguments most typically result from not an inability, but an…

> the complexity and nuance that goes into running a business

Unfortunately one of the side effects of having something so important also be so complex, hard to reason about, and hard to prove causation for, is that there are a lot of empty suits attracted to an area where it's hard to disprove that they contributed, but a lot of money to be made if they can convince the right people that they did.

By definition we can't know how many are genuinely hardworking contributors, how many are parasites, and how many are somewhere in the middle (e.g. did some good work but is phoning it home these days, got lucky but misattributed their own success so now just doles out bad advice). Claiming that only one of these three groups exists is of course naive - but when running into people who have a different perspective or make different claims, it's worth keeping in mind that the subset of these groups they've run into might differ from your own.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#102

Post by vlovich123 »

bonecrusher2102 wrote: post #6

This is such a tired take. It's part of a steady stream of commentary that reads something like "non-engineering-role X is bullshit." Here, we see engineers reduce the contributions of such common roles as: Product Manger, Program/Project Manager, Scrum Master, Marketer, CEO, etc., as fungible or run by the biggest boogeyman of all, the dreaded MBA. These arguments most typically result from not an inability, but an…

Interestingly Musk fired the entire Marketing / PR department. Hasn’t seemed to affect Tesla quite yet.

I love how you also snuck Scrum master in there, a role no one needs. Project managers are also often shoved into places they’re not needed (I’ve generally found them to be a net negative vs having the manager be responsible for it).

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#103

Post by solumos »

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #4

Most of the "engineering managers" I've had to work under have been utter bullshit. Didn't learn anything from them (technically or in regards to leadership) and were there merely to check a box, play babysitter and/or sit in meetings all day that had zero impact on our work streams. The few who did have impact (1) were skilled engineers in their own right and were able to translate that into more management, (2) und…

Same, I've had exactly one EM who wasn't bullshit and he matched your criteria perfectly.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#105

Post by sulam »

__alexs wrote: post #71
rco8786 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s silly. Managers exist on the same spectrum as any other role. Most are about average. Some are better, some are worse. Same with engineers themselves. These articles are undoubtedly written by people who have never been managers themselves, and frankly just don’t have any idea what the job is for. Which is fine - everyone starts that way. But to then assume the job is useless is classic sign of imaturity. > No…

I have been a manager and a manager of managers and I think we really do not have good data on whether not "management" as a profession in software engineering really adds value. We're bad at quantifying the value of engineers, and we're worse at quantifying the value of managers. There are definitely a wide range of non-engineering skills required to produce good software but that doesn't automatically justify the e…

I can justify it quite easily. Take it away and see what happens.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#106

Post by cwoolfe »

Agile Software development done well is a good way to combat BS because it makes building a product into a team sport where everything is out in the open. Grooming, planning, sprints, standups, retrospectives, demos are all ceremonies which increase transparency and accountability. They also provide a way where development productivity can be measured against the collective assessment of the team.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#107

Post by ir77 »

when i think most people complain about managers it really is due to their oganization promoting very talented but absolutely socially awkward people into management positions.

there is probably a struggle in many organizations with bad managers, simply because in a typical technical organization the only mobility path for very smart people is to be promoted to a manager to bump up their pay/role in their company. many of these managers have no business being responsible for managing other people.

what a good manager should be is simply a good people person. being technical is not a requirement, a good manager when asked for technical question should be cognizant enough to realize their limitations and put the direct report in touch with a technical mentor.

a good manager should manage his resources within the direction of his organization and ensure they have the tool sets, support or anything else that the direct report need to successfully complete their task.

the engineers take tasks from project/program and the manager is there to ensure that the engineer has the bandwidth to support his tasks and milestones and has all the tools to complete those tasks.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#108

Post by coldtea »

bonecrusher2102 wrote: post #6

This is such a tired take. It's part of a steady stream of commentary that reads something like "non-engineering-role X is bullshit." Here, we see engineers reduce the contributions of such common roles as: Product Manger, Program/Project Manager, Scrum Master, Marketer, CEO, etc., as fungible or run by the biggest boogeyman of all, the dreaded MBA. These arguments most typically result from not an inability, but an…

>Here, we see engineers reduce the contributions of such common roles as: Product Manger, Program/Project Manager, Scrum Master, Marketer

Cow dung is common too, but not necessarily useful. Maybe for manure...

Most actual work happens despite those roles, not because of them... Or even against them - and is dilluted, sabotaged, rushed, and crapped upon all the time by the decisions of the roles above.

If you meant "software production needs this role", then no. Software production (from Xerox Parc to the Linux kernel) can be just fine without them.

If you meant "a modern corporate bureucracy needs those roles to make a product", then maybe, but that's part of the reason those enterprise products are shitty.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#110

Post by thenerdhead »

bonecrusher2102 wrote: post #6

This is such a tired take. It's part of a steady stream of commentary that reads something like "non-engineering-role X is bullshit." Here, we see engineers reduce the contributions of such common roles as: Product Manger, Program/Project Manager, Scrum Master, Marketer, CEO, etc., as fungible or run by the biggest boogeyman of all, the dreaded MBA. These arguments most typically result from not an inability, but an…

What may look like cynicism at first is actually just fair criticism. It does not lack maturity, rather the opposite given it has some thoughtful research and examples of why EM can be in fact bullshit.
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