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Is engineering management bullshit?

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Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#91

Post by zuppy »

nonethewiser wrote: post #41
gautamdivgi wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t that true for everything though? More bad devs exist than good one? I guess a manager could make the same claim that devs are making his life miserable.

But a manager is something you progress into. How did bad people progress into it?

what people don't undertand (and that included me, when I did the change) is that being a manager is a totally different job than being a developer. you can be an extremely good developer, but be a lousy manager. there are different skills needed for those roles and not all of them are transferable. when you transition from a senior developer, you don't transition into a senior manager, you start from zero. it helps to be a good dev, but it's not a guarantee for success.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#92

Post by titzer »

Test0129 wrote: post #44
bonecrusher2102 wrote: post #6

This is such a tired take. It's part of a steady stream of commentary that reads something like "non-engineering-role X is bullshit." Here, we see engineers reduce the contributions of such common roles as: Product Manger, Program/Project Manager, Scrum Master, Marketer, CEO, etc., as fungible or run by the biggest boogeyman of all, the dreaded MBA. These arguments most typically result from not an inability, but an…

Here's the thing. At the end of the day all of the "complexity and nuance" of running a business doesn't matter. The only way you even get to execute on that is if you're flanked by good engineers. All roads lead to the engineer. Bad managers can be worked around. Mindless PMs can be worked around. But if every engineer at apple suddenly stopped working there would be real economic consequences. If managers and PMs s…

> much like the kid engineer coming out of school who believes he's legitimately God's gift to man

(other people doing stuff, inducing mild amounts of accountability)

> This is borderline tyranny to someone who is creative.

> most engineers should go back for their MBA. Not to get better at business but to understand their enemy.

That's an incredibly adversarial attitude severely lacking in self-reflection and empathy. It's really tough to work with people wound so tight. Having been a manager, if I were yours, I'd be working on helping you grow up a bit, and if that didn't work, I'd be helping you find a different role that was more suited to your...ahem...creativity. A role far away.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#93

Post by RHSeeger »

0xedd wrote: post #83
bonecrusher2102 wrote: post #6

This is such a tired take. It's part of a steady stream of commentary that reads something like "non-engineering-role X is bullshit." Here, we see engineers reduce the contributions of such common roles as: Product Manger, Program/Project Manager, Scrum Master, Marketer, CEO, etc., as fungible or run by the biggest boogeyman of all, the dreaded MBA. These arguments most typically result from not an inability, but an…

Quoted post unavailable.

> The field is oversaturated with incompetent PMs, team leads and CTOs.

The exact same thing can be said of programmers/developers; there are TONS of bad ones. The fact that there exist bad managers/pms/etc does not invalidate the need for good ones.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#94

Post by noneeeed »

sumtechguy wrote: post #65
drstewart wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my least favorite things about being on the technical side of things is this overarching smug sense of superiority that every other role is bullshit and doesn't do anything of real value. Or that other roles are malicious and/or incompetent and if engineers got their way the product would be perfect and free of defects of errors. e.g: "Don't blame the developers for X, we only put it in because of product or s…

Good way to bash that down is to ask 'would you want their role?' It makes them stop and think what does that person really do and they usually do not want to do it at all.

This was the question I asked myself that totally changed how I thought about sales and marketing people.

I cannot do sales, I do not want to do sales, but if I want a job someone needs to do sales. To me sales looks like an awful job, but some people really get a kick out of it and I'm glad they do because otherwise I would earn a lot less than I do.

We love to think that "if we build it they will come" but the reality is very different, and most of us work for companies that would struggle to grow without some form of sales or marketing operation, no matter how good the product might be.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#95

Post by dahart »

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #13
bonecrusher2102 wrote: post #6

This is such a tired take. It's part of a steady stream of commentary that reads something like "non-engineering-role X is bullshit." Here, we see engineers reduce the contributions of such common roles as: Product Manger, Program/Project Manager, Scrum Master, Marketer, CEO, etc., as fungible or run by the biggest boogeyman of all, the dreaded MBA. These arguments most typically result from not an inability, but an…

Oh please, there's a reason why those comments exist - because more terrible managers exist than those "good ones" that you allude do. I would posit a guess that most, if not all, engineers on HN have had to live through at least one terrible manager that has soured/tainted the position. Speaking for myself, I've lived through many and it's a miserable experience to be under these people. Nobody is saying that the fu…

Sturgeon’s Law: 90% of everything is crap. This applies to managers and to engineers. Turn your argument around and ask what happens when good managers have to deal with crappy engineers, because there are a lot of crappy engineers too. (And note especially that engineers can be bad on many axes. It’s possible for people with excellent technical skills to bring negative value to the organization due to poor attitude or poor communication, among other things.) Do you want good managers to judge you and assume that you’re a bad engineer just because they’ve had to manage some other bad engineers? Bad engineers also taint the role and lead to a certain earned reputation.

But if everyone projects their worst fear on the role, then we’re all stuck making assumptions, being pessimistic, and missing the good people because we’re blinded by our stuck ideas incorrectly generalizing individual people to their roles. If we can’t stop to see the good things and what does work, then functioning together is difficult and it drags down the team.

What value do you see in good management, and what makes a good manager in your experience?

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#96

Post by jevgeni »

halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #4

Most of the "engineering managers" I've had to work under have been utter bullshit. Didn't learn anything from them (technically or in regards to leadership) and were there merely to check a box, play babysitter and/or sit in meetings all day that had zero impact on our work streams. The few who did have impact (1) were skilled engineers in their own right and were able to translate that into more management, (2) und…

If they needed to play the babysitter, then you know why they were there...

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#97

Post by Thursday24 »

I'd say: No, not at all!

Read about Admiral Rickover. He built the first practical nuclear submarine in the world, for the US navy, in record time of 3 years. He cleared bureaucratic hurdles, played the politics when needed, kept tight control, delved deep into the technicalities of the project, recruited and trained a large number of people into the program, and ultimately made the project successful.

Dig deeper into any other large scale projects, you'll find great engineering management. The Manhattan project is another example (It should be categorised mostly under engineering management & not scientific management, according to some of the members in the team).

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#98

Post by ameister14 »

radicalbyte wrote: post #58
rco8786 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s silly. Managers exist on the same spectrum as any other role. Most are about average. Some are better, some are worse. Same with engineers themselves. These articles are undoubtedly written by people who have never been managers themselves, and frankly just don’t have any idea what the job is for. Which is fine - everyone starts that way. But to then assume the job is useless is classic sign of imaturity. > No…

> Most are about average. That is not how averages work. It depends on the distribution.

It's most likely a bell curve

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#99

Post by grumple »

liuliu wrote: post #60
rco8786 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s silly. Managers exist on the same spectrum as any other role. Most are about average. Some are better, some are worse. Same with engineers themselves. These articles are undoubtedly written by people who have never been managers themselves, and frankly just don’t have any idea what the job is for. Which is fine - everyone starts that way. But to then assume the job is useless is classic sign of imaturity. > No…

> Managers exist on the same spectrum as any other role. Most are about average. Some are better, some are worse. Same with engineers themselves. I do understand what OP said somewhat though. Mostly due to Peter's principle, thus, managers are not "about average" but "mostly incompetent". It is easier to promote people managers than ICs in growing organization, hence it is easier to play out Peter's principle in real…

The Peter Principle is just an idea someone had (and intended to be satire) and not an actual factual reflection of the way the world works.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#100

Post by Buttons840 »

bonecrusher2102 wrote: post #6

This is such a tired take. It's part of a steady stream of commentary that reads something like "non-engineering-role X is bullshit." Here, we see engineers reduce the contributions of such common roles as: Product Manger, Program/Project Manager, Scrum Master, Marketer, CEO, etc., as fungible or run by the biggest boogeyman of all, the dreaded MBA. These arguments most typically result from not an inability, but an…

It's hard to identify failing managent, especially from the top looking down, and the burden of management failures fall on those below them. This leads to a lot of frustration and blog posts like this, wondering if all managent is bullshit.

It seems really unfair to a developer, who thinks "if I screw up the entire company halts, if you screw up I have to work harder". And so the developer can't shake the feeling that management is bullshit.

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