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Is engineering management bullshit?

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Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#21
In a well oiled org managers aren't needed. I know it because I've been part of one. It needs specialised skilled workers i.e., product owner, product designer, project manager, and engineers. There'll be a tech lead among engineers who will be point person for the project manager. That's it. At the top you need execs or business heads liaising with product owners and/or project managers.

Managers however become essential when this well oiled machine is thrown off by a sudden expansion of the team or when there's a chronic uncertainty about the work that's going to happen next month. Then you need whose who are good at navigating this chaos through networking, politics etc., to get the work done as well as making sure the team survives should the axe fall.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#22
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note how everything you categorize as 'high-impact' is basically politics. "Rather than focus on delivering results (which again is difficult(!), might be wrong, and often not easily identified by leadership), these people spend time making alliances and crafting narratives about outcomes instead of delivering. Title acquisition becomes the goal, seeking to maximize the expected organizational rewards, at the expense…

Politics is something you do or something that is done to you is the saying no? Would you rather someone from engineering do your politics for you? Or someone from product or the business? I think the engineering person will look after you better. Where it becomes fascinating is the 10+ year EM. They used to know what to do, but clearly don't anymore. They either accept that, and lean on their leads for technical dec…

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Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#23
post #15

The purpose of engineering management is to create a buffer between the engineers and the a’holes, who, if permitted to manage the engineers directly, would drive them from the company. This is a critical, but not full-time job, as evinced by the fact that most engineering managers are themselves engaged in technical issues.

The main goal to staying employed as one is to push down priorities from above.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#24
I like to think that management is a noble profession if done right. I've seen a handful of examples over a 10+ year career thus far.

You get to empower people to be better versions of themselves everyday. What other job allows you to do that?

The reality however is that most EM jobs are in fact bullshit jobs. They usually have people who are simply managers/operators, not often leaders nor coaches. To summarize a people manager's job, it's two main things:

1) Get results

2) Grow & retain your people

The challenge is that many EMs are also "assholes" so both of these goals are hard to accomplish. They fit into an asshole category in itself:

- political assholes master the art of corporate politics but do nothing but take credit for everyone else's work.

- controlling assholes micromanage to the point of strangling creativity and joy out of their team while taking credit for others creative ideas and call them their own.

- asshole assholes are mean, jealous, and insecure jerks who find ways to lie and manipulate others for their gain.

- mission-driven assholes are people who are crazy passionate and trample over how things are "done around here" to see the mission succeed.

Note: I use the term "asshole" in reference to Tony Fadell's book "Build". It's a fun way to think about it.

Most engineering teams tend to optimize for the incentive of the engineering manager, not the whole team. It's winner-take-all. The good EMs are the ones who see through this and ensure their whole team is empowered at the potential cost of their own incentive. These EMs usually win-win in the long term.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#25

Most of the "engineering managers" I've had to work under have been utter bullshit. Didn't learn anything from them (technically or in regards to leadership) and were there merely to check a box, play babysitter and/or sit in meetings all day that had zero impact on our work streams. The few who did have impact (1) were skilled engineers in their own right and were able to translate that into more management, (2) und…

> sit in meetings all day that had zero impact on our work streams

maybe the manager was busy in meetings all day in order to ensure you had zero impact on your work streams :)

the role of an EM in a large organisation is in large part to be an "enterprise abstraction layer", ensuring the people in the team(s) can work in a way that is as close as possible to what they could do in a startup/solo project

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please, there's a reason why those comments exist - because more terrible managers exist than those "good ones" that you allude do. I would posit a guess that most, if not all, engineers on HN have had to live through at least one terrible manager that has soured/tainted the position. Speaking for myself, I've lived through many and it's a miserable experience to be under these people. Nobody is saying that the fu…

Isn’t that true for everything though? More bad devs exist than good one? I guess a manager could make the same claim that devs are making his life miserable.

The power dynamic is completely different. Managers have the ability to hire/fire, guide technical decisions (usually for the worse) and set the tone for the team since its "their" team. The team itself has very little recourse over a bad manager.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#27

This is such a tired take. It's part of a steady stream of commentary that reads something like "non-engineering-role X is bullshit." Here, we see engineers reduce the contributions of such common roles as: Product Manger, Program/Project Manager, Scrum Master, Marketer, CEO, etc., as fungible or run by the biggest boogeyman of all, the dreaded MBA. These arguments most typically result from not an inability, but an…

Oh please, there's a reason why those comments exist - because more terrible managers exist than those "good ones" that you allude do. I would posit a guess that most, if not all, engineers on HN have had to live through at least one terrible manager that has soured/tainted the position. Speaking for myself, I've lived through many and it's a miserable experience to be under these people. Nobody is saying that the fu…

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Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please, there's a reason why those comments exist - because more terrible managers exist than those "good ones" that you allude do. I would posit a guess that most, if not all, engineers on HN have had to live through at least one terrible manager that has soured/tainted the position. Speaking for myself, I've lived through many and it's a miserable experience to be under these people. Nobody is saying that the fu…

Isn’t that true for everything though? More bad devs exist than good one? I guess a manager could make the same claim that devs are making his life miserable.

Actually I've developed the wisdom to realize that 90% of people are not good at what they do for a living. They don't have that job because they're talented at it, they have it because they needed a job.

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please, there's a reason why those comments exist - because more terrible managers exist than those "good ones" that you allude do. I would posit a guess that most, if not all, engineers on HN have had to live through at least one terrible manager that has soured/tainted the position. Speaking for myself, I've lived through many and it's a miserable experience to be under these people. Nobody is saying that the fu…

Isn’t that true for everything though? More bad devs exist than good one? I guess a manager could make the same claim that devs are making his life miserable.

But the worst thing ever is when a bad dev gets promoted to the position of a dev manager or a tech lead. Armed with “knowledge” and “experience,” and now with a degree of authority, they would put their weight on everything they touch. The damage will be immense (but no one would care).

Re: Is engineering management bullshit?

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please, there's a reason why those comments exist - because more terrible managers exist than those "good ones" that you allude do. I would posit a guess that most, if not all, engineers on HN have had to live through at least one terrible manager that has soured/tainted the position. Speaking for myself, I've lived through many and it's a miserable experience to be under these people. Nobody is saying that the fu…

Isn’t that true for everything though? More bad devs exist than good one? I guess a manager could make the same claim that devs are making his life miserable.

Isn’t that true for everything though? More bad devs exist than good one?

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that a large number of users in this community have actually worked in a bubble of tech outside the norm where most devs were actually pretty solid overall. A developer who is truly incompetent (not just mediocre) would have a very hard time even getting hired at a FAANG or similar, let alone stick around very long.

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