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My goal of closing 10% of Emacs bugs (2020)

lars.ingebrigtsen.no

101–110 of 117 posts

Re: My goal of closing 10% of Emacs bugs (2020)

#101
post #46

Unrelated to the echievent the article mentions. But I'm curious, how does emacs fare for modern C++ these days? Is it a good IDE? It always struck me that an editor with the history it has, couldn't handle C++11 syntax in 2014. Or, I didn't want to try to figure out how. To clarify, I include common packages as part of "out of the box". From a quick Google search, it does look like cc-lang might be catching up. And…

I use sublime because it has nice IDE-like features like a file tree, goto-file, goto-symbol, references to, definitions of, but it is doing simple pattern matching; no IDE will be smart enough to figure out the ungodly build system I work with. If I'm on windows I like visual studio, love the debugger, but for regular code-slinging I find it pretty slow/unresponsive. I also found VSCode totally unresponsive on Linux…

> no IDE will be smart enough to figure out the ungodly build system I work with

Sounds very familiar! People who don't use IDEs should be banned from building tooling - especially build systems.

Re: My goal of closing 10% of Emacs bugs (2020)

#102
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No! You slash the number of bug reports . The bugs are still there! Am I missing some joke here?

1. You don't know if they are still there. Thousands of commits have been done since then. Whenever I did go through a long list of old bugs, many were not reproduceable. 2. Many companies have no bug triage process and just fill every bug that is reported. So these are bugs that no one has any intention of fixing. So it's not important if they are there or not. 3. You seem to think that only the bugs in your bugtrac…

> 1. You don't know if they are still there. Thousands of commits have been done since then. Whenever I did go through a long list of old bugs, many were not reproduceable.

It can certainly be reasonable to close unreproducable bugs. But you said that you habitually come in and close any bug older than 6 months. Those are different things.

> 2. Many companies have no bug triage process and just fill every bug that is reported. So these are bugs that no one has any intention of fixing. So it's not important if they are there or not.

Surely it's important to know that the bug exists even if it's unlikely to be fixed?

> 3. You seem to think that only the bugs in your bugtracker are there.

Not at all. What makes you think that?

> The bugs in your bugtracker are a random selection with a bias to the more obvious ones of the bugs in your code.

OK. And? You propose throwing out a list of problems because that list is biased and incomplete? "– My roof is leaking! – Yes, but you're focusing on that because it's easy to see! You should ignore it unless you are also sure that your electrical wiring is sound."

> 4. If you don't want to fix bugs, you don't need to track them.

With respect, this is absolutely nuts! Knowing of deficiencies in a program can be very, very useful!

Re: My goal of closing 10% of Emacs bugs (2020)

#103
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - Improves morale I'd buy this if the bug was actually gone. But it's not! Closing a bug report doesn't make the bug go away! > - Focuses the team A decent bug tracker should have priority levels for various bugs, surely. > - Makes the task more approachable I don't understand. Can you elaborate? > The important ones will probably bubble up again in due time. This seems like a terrible waste of everyone's time.

> I'd buy this if the bug was actually gone. But it's not! Closing a bug report doesn't make the bug go away! It does improve morale. Developers see a mountain of bugs they could never fix. > I don't understand. Can you elaborate? Say you have 100 bugs open for 10 developers, and you close all bugs older than 6 months. Then you go through the remaining one and close all the ones who have no impact ("css line should b…

> It does improve morale. Developers see a mountain of bugs they could never fix.

So you propose that telling them that the mountain is gone will actually make them believe that it is?

> No managing hundreds of bugs in a bugtracker that do not get fixed is a terrible waste of everyone's time.

How do bug tracker entries waste people's time? Sure, confirming or fixing or otherwise working on a bug takes time, but that's hardly wasted. And if the bug just sits there, how does it waste time?

Re: My goal of closing 10% of Emacs bugs (2020)

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the closing was was purging of not reproduceable/low quality/useless bug reports then it would be different. Would 10 month old well documented report of critical security issue also would be closed after your purge?

If you have a critical security issue not fixed ASAP but lying around for 10 months I'd say you have other problems in your organisation than a high bug count.

Maybe it didn't look like a security problem at first?

Re: My goal of closing 10% of Emacs bugs (2020)

#105
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the proposed action isn't to fix the bugs, it's to delete the documentation of the bugs! Closing your eyes don't make a problem go away. Surely the engineers understand that too, and won't get a moral boost from ignoring the known problems.

I did not suggest to ignore the known problems: "and we implement ways to not reach high bug levels again" I suggest to close bug reports of bugs that will never get fixed.

> I suggest to close bug reports of bugs that will never get fixed.

OK. We still disagree about whether that is smart, but one thing is sure: that's not what you wrote originally.

Re: My goal of closing 10% of Emacs bugs (2020)

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm calling Poe's Law [0] on this one. I could 100% believe this is genuine, but I would also 100% believe this is a quote from a Dilbert-like comic strip. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

Never saw myself as PHB :-)

[deleted]

Re: My goal of closing 10% of Emacs bugs (2020)

#107

Little bit related: When I come into a company as CTO, and there are too many bugs, I just close all bugs older than 6 months. Usually that's more than 10% (and the org wasn't capable or willing to fix them). Hasn't created any problems yet, but everyone feels better immediately (and we implement ways to not reach high bug levels again).

As someone who takes a lot of care to document bugs, I would quit if you did that to my bugs. If something isn't reproducible anymore, fine, close it. But just closing stuff that nobody got around to fixing yet is evil.

> But just closing stuff that nobody got around to fixing yet is evil.

If nobody is ever going to get around to fixing it, then I'd argue that it needs to be closed.

Which isn't to defend blindly closing issues open more than X days, but in a bugtracker I think it needs to be valid to close an issue was WONTFIX when it might be a valid issue, but the code owners are simply never going to budget the time to get around to it in the next 10 years.

And the bug will still be there and searchable, and people can find it and see the resolution. It may not be satisfying, but the end result communicates clearly that any fix will need to be externally contributed.

Keeping around hundreds of bugs that will never be allocated resources or closed is a drain on the team who is maintaining the bugtracker, they have to periodically go through and curate all those issues, and just looking at the number is fatiguing. The result is usually that people stop interacting with the bugtracker and users really wind up shouting into the void.

There seems to be this attitude by users that they can demand that their issues stay open forever, and that the negative impact on the developers is some kind of punishment for them not having the time to address the issue and that it is unfair to just close issues that won't be addressed, but that's a very self-centered perspective on the part of the user, and the developers wind up suffering a psychological death-by-1000-cuts problem that doesn't help the project or anything get done.

But that means you need to accept at some point that someone is going to kill your baby that you produced and close an issue and tell you that they're not prioritizing it. But they're communicating that they've made a choice, rather than making that choice anyway while leaving the issue open for multiple years and never doing anything about it because they don't have infinite time to fix everything (and every large codebase will always have more bugs than time to fix them).

Re: My goal of closing 10% of Emacs bugs (2020)

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I just close all bugs older than 6 months [...] everyone feels better immediately I mean, people would feel even better if you just closed all the bugs, right? Some of the oldest unclosed bug reports are the most valuable. because they document long-standing pain points. Not that you would know... :-) If there were, say, 300 open bugs, you and 4 other people go through and triage them. ("You get bugs whose numbers…

"Some of the oldest unclosed bug reports are the most valuable. because they document long-standing pain points." Say there is a bug, "The line should be 2 em high" and the bug is not fixed for 6+ months, how is this more valuable because it's older? Yes, I would agree with the triage, and do it if possible. If an organisation is unwilling to spend resources to fix bugs, a triage doesn't work. It's the same with this…

"The line should be 2 em high" seems more like a feature request or... like just a general whining, than a bug. Your strategy of just closing these is probably valid. But I would call it "closing non-bug complaints which abuse the bug tracker," not slashing bugs.

The reason people are so confused here, I think, is because to programmers, bugs are incorrect behavior of the program. These bugs exist whether they are reported or not. Removing bug reports does not remove bugs.

In other comments you mention "and we implement ways to not reach high bug levels again." Is it possible that from a programmer's point of view, you are actually enforcing proper use of the bug tracker? i.e., keeping graphic design opinions about line widths out of it.

Re: My goal of closing 10% of Emacs bugs (2020)

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who takes a lot of care to document bugs, I would quit if you did that to my bugs. If something isn't reproducible anymore, fine, close it. But just closing stuff that nobody got around to fixing yet is evil.

> But just closing stuff that nobody got around to fixing yet is evil. If nobody is ever going to get around to fixing it, then I'd argue that it needs to be closed. Which isn't to defend blindly closing issues open more than X days, but in a bugtracker I think it needs to be valid to close an issue was WONTFIX when it might be a valid issue, but the code owners are simply never going to budget the time to get around…

Closing a bug as "wontfix" is very different from "just close all bugs older than 6 months".

Re: My goal of closing 10% of Emacs bugs (2020)

#110
post #6

Looks like since this was posted, the page author has closed another 10% of open emacs bugs: https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2022/01/20/13x10/

Last update is https://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/2022/08/19/19x10/

does he have a live stream :)
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