How sustainable are fake meats? • Hacker News Board

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#41

Post by chad_stevens » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 3:15 PM UTC

bantunes wrote: post #3

drewg123 wrote: post #2

From the article: " even poorly produced plant-based meats are better, environmentally, than meat from well-raised livestock. "

I don't know why this is surprising. Option A: grow plants, eat plants. Option B: grow plants, breed animals, feed plants to animals, give animal antibiotics to survive breeding pens, give animal hormones to grow faster, slaughter animal, eat animal.

1)Most land used for animals is not suitable for development.

2)most water used is captured rain water

3)lots of feed is byproduct

4)These animals provide fertilizer and natural tilling of the ground

5) the carbon footprint of raising cattle or other animals is infinitesimally small.

Practices that make it more environmentally friendly (ie no giant feces and urine ponds) could be either mandated or encouraged.

Animals are used more for just meat. Hide is used for products. Poop is used for fertilizer. Pig urine is used to reduce carbon emissions in 18 wheelers. Etc etc

Trying to remove a major food staple is idiotic. There could be ramifications that are not known to us for doing this. Just like people trying to get rid of mosquitoes. We don’t have the entire ecosystem mapped out where we can make these changes without consequence.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#42

Post by lm28469 » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 3:15 PM UTC

intrasight wrote: post #30

"fake meat" is processed food. That, IMHO, is the main difference over just eating fresh vegetables. It's more expensive because of that, and introduces externalities and risks. I see "fake meat" as a temporary crutch for people transitioning to vegetarianism.

I'm vegetarian, I like the taste of meat, I hate the taste of these "fake" meats and I'd much rather eat veggies

I really don't see the point of these, they barely taste as good as the cheapest frozen meat patty you can find. It's almost like cardboard patties with a hint of burned meat taste, and it costs as much if not more than meat in most restaurants.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#43

Post by ecshafer » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 3:16 PM UTC

Fake meats seem to get a market on very the environmentally conscious and vegetarians but I don't think it'll hit big. Beyond the marketing appeal to normal consumers of "eww processed fake meat", the reality is that it's all very gross. I have given them a college try and they are not a good replacement for meat and wouldn't willingly eat them again and most people I have talked to feel the same about it.

I am much more bullish on lab grown meat which produces actual meat and merely removes the animal as an incubator. If we can get the process of turning some plant matter into actual meat that will be the golden ticket, and people will actually buy this since its actually meat.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#44

Post by scetron » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 3:17 PM UTC

an1sotropy wrote: post #7

steve_adams_86 wrote: post #4

If you know much about agriculture, this question has an almost certain answer. The contrast of energy and resource expense between plants and animals is staggering, even if you’re comparing a less demanding animal like chicken. You can refrigerate, process, and ship many plants by sea, truck, and plane and they won’t catch up to animal foods. We’re also not seeing a clear economic picture in Canada and the USA becau…

It is so frustrating how much well-entrenched subsidies and tax breaks have distorted our (consumer's) notion of what is "regular" vs "expensive".

Agreed! I always thinking of driving, specifically roads and fuel in the US. They absorb huge amounts of money, we rarely see the true cost.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#45

Post by odiroot » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 3:17 PM UTC

Even just looking at this article, switching from beef (and lamb) to pork would already help a lot.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#46

Post by enraged_camel » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 3:18 PM UTC

asciimov wrote: post #23

an1sotropy wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is so frustrating how much well-entrenched subsidies and tax breaks have distorted our (consumer's) notion of what is "regular" vs "expensive".

Frustrating, no. Half the people in the US couldn't afford food if the costs weren't low. Paying subsidies is a way to keep labor costs low while keeping people fed.

That itself is frustrating too though, right? Why do we need subsidies to be able to afford life’s most basic staples?

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#47

Post by criley2 » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 3:18 PM UTC

chrchr wrote: post #19

bantunes wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why this is surprising. Option A: grow plants, eat plants. Option B: grow plants, breed animals, feed plants to animals, give animal antibiotics to survive breeding pens, give animal hormones to grow faster, slaughter animal, eat animal.

It’s not actually that simple. Livestock don’t necessarily eat the same plants people eat. Cattle can eat indigestible-to-humans cellulose in grasses and turn it into meat and milk. Grass can grow on marginal land without fertilizer or irrigation, unlike food crops for humans. Pigs and chickens can eat garbage and turn them into meat and eggs.

Interesting that you chose cows which are, by far, the worst animal for the environment from the clear-cutting of old growth forests, to the shocking contribution to climate change their gases produce, to the sheer amounts of water and food it takes to grow a full cow.

There's nothing on this planet (w.r.t. our diet) worse for the environment than beef. It's King Bad.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#48

Post by drewg123 » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 3:18 PM UTC

an1sotropy wrote: post #5

answer: more sustainable than "real" meat, sometimes a lot more so. But sustainability doesn't determine popularity, and all the efforts taken to increase popularity (i.e. more engineering and more processing) do increase environmental cost. But plant-based foods are still a big win, probably: the business realities of these products mean that true numbers are not disclosed. btw I hate the term "fake" here - it's not…

I strongly agree. A lot of the current "meat" that people eat is highly processed. Its not like chicken nugget or burger is a "natural" product these days. Some burgers are made up of meats from up to 100s of animals[0].

[0]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/08/05/there...

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#49

Post by lm28469 » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 3:18 PM UTC

megaman821 wrote: post #34

kujin88 wrote: post #18

AFAIK they're far more sustainable since they need nowhere near the amount of land, water, resources and food as the animals in the dairy and meat industries do. This, and further minus all the torture, suffering and force-feeding

I think fake meat will be important in the future because there is no way we can eat the amount of meat and dairy that we do without many negatives. That said, there is a level of sustainable livestock. Cows can graze on natural grass lands, eating a plants that humans can't digest anyway. Pigs can mostly eat agricultural waste product. Chickens can eat cover crops. The fact that land is cleared for grazing and anima…

> I think fake meat will be important in the future because there is no way we can eat the amount of meat and dairy that we do without many negatives.

Or we could eat like our grandparents used to eat back in the 50s-60s, at least in France meat was still a fairly occasional thing, you bought a good cut of meat every now and then and enjoyed it. Today we chug gallons of processed meat at every meal, most of it being bad on both the nutritional and taste aspect.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#50

Post by hombre_fatal » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 3:19 PM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #10

steve_adams_86 wrote: post #4

If you know much about agriculture, this question has an almost certain answer. The contrast of energy and resource expense between plants and animals is staggering, even if you’re comparing a less demanding animal like chicken. You can refrigerate, process, and ship many plants by sea, truck, and plane and they won’t catch up to animal foods. We’re also not seeing a clear economic picture in Canada and the USA becau…

> the substitutes seem unnecessarily unhealthy As a meat eater, this has been my philosophy. If you’re gonna go vegetarian, just go for it. Vegeterian food is delicious and there’s so much choice! Entire cultures of amazing natively vegetarian foods with no need for weird meat substitutes. Personally, legumes don’t have the right macros. Neither do fake meats. Cottage cheese and greek yogurt make better meat substitu…

> As a meat eater, this has been my philosophy. If you’re gonna go vegetarian, just go for it.

I never understood this meme. What exactly is the philosophy? A philosophy of how others should partake in a lifestyle that you don’t?

It's odd enough to tell others what to prefer, but it's not clear what the impact of "As a meat eater" is supposed to have.

"As a straight man, my philosophy is if you're gonna be gay, just be gay this certain way." —It's nonsensical to me.