Don't ignore the janitor • Hacker News Board

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#211

Post by RHSeeger » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 1:32 PM UTC

m0llusk wrote: post #198

This can also be something of a trap. For some time now I have worked as a housecleaner and there is a common scenario that I have learned to avoid: Clients are friendly and ask how you are. Cleaners then answer honestly about how this is an opportunity for them and hard physical work is all between them and crushing poverty. Clients are generally unprepared for the extreme problems that people living as cleaners may…

> Clients are friendly and ask how you are. Cleaners then answer honestly

This is not unique to interactions between the well off and not well off. It's true that in most case, when people ask "how are you", they're not looking for a detailed answer. It's a pleasantry, and the expected answer are of a more general form ("ok", "great", "not great, but getting by", "not a great day", etc).

As a side note, I have a cleaning lady and have gone through a number of them over the years. Some of them we've been friendly with (we knew the names of her kids and asked about them, etc), some we were only passing acquainted with (friendly, but in the general way above). It can vary a lot depending on the people involved.

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#212

Post by samatman » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 1:33 PM UTC

m0llusk wrote: post #198

This can also be something of a trap. For some time now I have worked as a housecleaner and there is a common scenario that I have learned to avoid: Clients are friendly and ask how you are. Cleaners then answer honestly about how this is an opportunity for them and hard physical work is all between them and crushing poverty. Clients are generally unprepared for the extreme problems that people living as cleaners may…

When, and this is not a hypothetical, I'm getting to know someone socially, and they open up about the crushing difficulty of paying the bills with unskilled labor, I respond... like you'd expect a decent human being to respond. One who has been through periods of grinding poverty with no safety net, and escaped it through luck more than anything else.

If I've hired someone to clean my house? Personally, I pay what a cleaner asks. I'd like us both to leave feeling at least ok: I have a clean house, they have money.

If, and I do, I say "hey how's it going?" and I got a response which was about the emotional difficulty of earning a living, I would feel pretty uncomfortable, since I'm engaged, in real time, in exchanging money for services with this person. I'd wonder if I should be paying more, if I didn't tip enough last time. It's emotionally manipulative in context.

I've gotten some insight into the lives of the three-person team who does clean my house, without them souring our professional relationship like this. Saying something open-ended like "times are tough, you know?" is plenty to open the door without, and I'm going to quote here:

> Cleaners then answer honestly about how this is an opportunity for them and hard physical work is all between them and crushing poverty.

Making the person who hired you uncomfortable about the contract you both entered into willingly, and with awareness of the broader economic circumstances and labor relationships involved.

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#213

Post by RHSeeger » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 1:34 PM UTC

LBJsPNS wrote: post #201

m0llusk wrote: post #198

This can also be something of a trap. For some time now I have worked as a housecleaner and there is a common scenario that I have learned to avoid: Clients are friendly and ask how you are. Cleaners then answer honestly about how this is an opportunity for them and hard physical work is all between them and crushing poverty. Clients are generally unprepared for the extreme problems that people living as cleaners may…

Because god knows the rich folks can't have their delicate psyche disturbed by the intrusion of reality. Yes, I know you have a business to run. I also know that if people are allowed to isolate themselves from uncomfortable realities, those realities are likely to continue.

This is overly condescending of rich folks. The "I wasn't looking for a real, detailed answer to _how are you_" is a common thing in the US. It's a pleasantry, and (for people you aren't close to), most people don't expect a detailed answer. It is in NO way unique to rich, poor, or any other segment of society in the US.

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#214

Post by inkcapmushroom » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 1:36 PM UTC

saurik wrote: post #137

shepherdjerred wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take this type of mindset often. It's something I'm trying to change. The better mindset, in my opinion, is that you can choose to do something nice for others for no reason other than to help someone else out.

The point I was making is that someone else's job isn't being nice to them, because you aren't doing something nice FOR THEM you are instead doing something nice FOR THEIR EMPLOYER as the amount of money they are paid or the load of tasks they are being given will adjust behind the scenes. It isn't intuitive, but once pointed out I hope it becomes obvious? If you do enough of their job for them, they get fired :(. If…

>you should strive to have solidarity with workers

Kind of weird to make this point at the end, right after you apparently say you intentionally make the cleaning jobs harder. As a cleaner if people make more of a mess of things, you'll just get overwhelmed with too much work and then things will look messy and you'll get fired. Cleaners usually don't get raises, and especially not raises for doing more work. You maybe get token raises when you threaten to leave due to low pay and the managers can't find a replacement straight away.

Nobody ever saw a clean office and came to the conclusion, "Our cleaning staff must be lazing about because someone else is cleaning for them, we should fire them all!"

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#215

Post by lupire » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 1:37 PM UTC

RHSeeger wrote: post #211

m0llusk wrote: post #198

This can also be something of a trap. For some time now I have worked as a housecleaner and there is a common scenario that I have learned to avoid: Clients are friendly and ask how you are. Cleaners then answer honestly about how this is an opportunity for them and hard physical work is all between them and crushing poverty. Clients are generally unprepared for the extreme problems that people living as cleaners may…

> Clients are friendly and ask how you are. Cleaners then answer honestly This is not unique to interactions between the well off and not well off. It's true that in most case, when people ask "how are you", they're not looking for a detailed answer. It's a pleasantry, and the expected answer are of a more general form ("ok", "great", "not great, but getting by", "not a great day", etc). As a side note, I have a clea…

Usually when someone has some trouble, if you can help you do your part, and the trouble isn't your fault.

But when the issue is wealth inequality, the wealthier person can help, but doesn't want to, out of selfish greed, and is on the "team" that is at fault. The wealthy person is either wracked with guilt (and a hypocrite for not acting) or is an entitled jerk.

Unless the employer are paying the cleaner a good wage (almost never happens), there is direct responsibility.

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#216

Post by lupire » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 1:38 PM UTC

LBJsPNS wrote: post #201

m0llusk wrote: post #198

This can also be something of a trap. For some time now I have worked as a housecleaner and there is a common scenario that I have learned to avoid: Clients are friendly and ask how you are. Cleaners then answer honestly about how this is an opportunity for them and hard physical work is all between them and crushing poverty. Clients are generally unprepared for the extreme problems that people living as cleaners may…

Because god knows the rich folks can't have their delicate psyche disturbed by the intrusion of reality. Yes, I know you have a business to run. I also know that if people are allowed to isolate themselves from uncomfortable realities, those realities are likely to continue.

It's more than that. The reality is what what the rich person is doing is wrong (taking advantage of people's desperation, as an opportunity to underpay for labor), but they can't handle facing it.

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#217

Post by engineer_22 » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 1:38 PM UTC

m0llusk wrote: post #198

This can also be something of a trap. For some time now I have worked as a housecleaner and there is a common scenario that I have learned to avoid: Clients are friendly and ask how you are. Cleaners then answer honestly about how this is an opportunity for them and hard physical work is all between them and crushing poverty. Clients are generally unprepared for the extreme problems that people living as cleaners may…

Unpopular opinion: complaining about life circumstances isn't polite conversation with an acquaintance, especially a client. Your interlocutor will feel put upon, that if they don't engage sympathetically and try to help they will be seen as unfeeling or cruel. They may wonder if they are being emotionally manipulated.

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#218

Post by blueflow » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 1:39 PM UTC

RHSeeger wrote: post #213

LBJsPNS wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because god knows the rich folks can't have their delicate psyche disturbed by the intrusion of reality. Yes, I know you have a business to run. I also know that if people are allowed to isolate themselves from uncomfortable realities, those realities are likely to continue.

This is overly condescending of rich folks. The "I wasn't looking for a real, detailed answer to _how are you_" is a common thing in the US. It's a pleasantry, and (for people you aren't close to), most people don't expect a detailed answer. It is in NO way unique to rich, poor, or any other segment of society in the US.

Some people have thin skin and sometimes its tiring to work around it. I wish i could be more open about my "this and that is in shambles but i'll have managed it next week" without people getting uncomfortable.

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#219

Post by lupire » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 1:42 PM UTC

yaseer wrote: post #161

RalfWausE wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, can confirm that: The time i was working in an hospital in germany (around 2001) an older dude worked in the janitor department, turned out, he had an doctor degree in mechanical engeneering and was designing jet engines for MiG before the soviet union collapsed... and now was repairing toilets and changing lightbulbs. Sad stories...

We can all joke about how Big Tech shovels some of the finest technical minds towards clicking ads. But on the plus side, the size of the tech sector in 2022 does make for much more efficient job market for technical skills, than in decades past. I would hope someone with a doctorate in mechanical engineering, who used to design jet engines, would be able adapt their skills to go work somewhere like Tesla, or a self-…

What's the (society-scale) plus side in doing useless or harmful work for good money, winning the rat race on a sinking ship?

Re: Don't ignore the janitor

#220

Post by mattferderer » Tue, Sep 06, 2022, 1:44 PM UTC

lambdasquirrel wrote: post #98

Arainach wrote: post #49

This seems harder in our modern world where everything is contracted out to the lowest bidder. I've had great conversations with custodial staff at schools, parks, and other areas that actually hire the workers. At my day job, a giant corporation which hires its engineers but outsources its janitors, chefs, and so on, there's a totally different vibe. Even the few janitors that speak English are both rushed to comple…

One of the janitors in my high school once gave us a lecture on linear algebra. I don't know what he did before he left the former Warsaw Pact country he was from, but it was one of those whoa kind of experiences.

Reminds me of this old Big Bang Theory episode - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZd8sDquNYw