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'Serious errors' in research linking deaths to red meat

thetimes.co.uk

131–140 of 227 posts

Re: 'Serious errors' in research linking deaths to red meat

#131

When science becomes driven by political agendas it ceases to be science.

No, it doesn't. That's the kind of attitude that ignores perfectly good science that proves something you don't like just because you didn't like the authors or what they stand for. What drives the science is irrelevant in the question of whether it's still science. As long as the data and methodology are sound, science was done. It's when either or both are compromised in order to make false claims that something ce…

If that was true there would not be any need to declare funding. Let's be real, everyone is funding their own agenda. If some scientist finds some effect that helps a corp or an activist group further their own mission, they get funding.

The finding might still be totally valid, but the visibility of the science and in particular the visibility of the science to the right people (legislators) can still be influenced by agenda driven entities.

Re: 'Serious errors' in research linking deaths to red meat

#132

Every PhD student should, in order to obtain PhD, not only do his original research but reproduce another published result. This will make PhD harder to get, so PhD’s will become more valuable (and more vetted), and we will have people verify published studies.

Great idea! Reproducing is also a great way to understand the field, and can actually help you a lot with your own research and techniques.

This also ensures the most famous results are the most replicated. Hugely valuable to society since the most famous results also drive the most thinking / decisions / policies.

Re: 'Serious errors' in research linking deaths to red meat

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it doesn't. That's the kind of attitude that ignores perfectly good science that proves something you don't like just because you didn't like the authors or what they stand for. What drives the science is irrelevant in the question of whether it's still science. As long as the data and methodology are sound, science was done. It's when either or both are compromised in order to make false claims that something ce…

If that was true there would not be any need to declare funding. Let's be real, everyone is funding their own agenda. If some scientist finds some effect that helps a corp or an activist group further their own mission, they get funding. The finding might still be totally valid, but the visibility of the science and in particular the visibility of the science to the right people (legislators) can still be influenced…

So, the last 100 years of scientific research, then?

As long as science was done properly, the results are valid (even if the opinions on what those results mean may not be).

And if "not enough science was done" to rigorously investigate the entire landscape, that's not a failing of those doing the science. It's not their job to perform years-long work for nothing, so someone's going to have to pay for it, and academia has no money, independent research institutes only work on commission, and companies obviously only pay for studies they think will let them grow as a business. Especially in that last case, if the research does some funny stuff with the statistics (as is so often the case), that's on "us" (as in, the reviewers, publishers, and experts in the field) to call bullshit on, but "those who stand to gain pay for the research" has been driving research since before either of us was born.

Re: 'Serious errors' in research linking deaths to red meat

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politics and education are certainly factors, but I would argue that they are minor. The bigger issue is the natural incentive structures that academia has created. If you want to have a career, you get both attention and funding in return for headline-grabbing results. This creates two huge second-order effects: first, everyone's incentivized to look for big impressive new effects. Second, focusing on confirmatory w…

> Politics and education are certainly factors, but I would argue that they are minor Are they? If your proposed project does not align with current politics, no funding for you.

From reading papers of various different types in the past few years it really depends a lot on the exact field in question.

Nutrition? Would be surprising if there's much political distortion there but there's lots of really bad methodologies, partly because it's hard to get good data (people are bad at reliably writing down what they eat).

Social bot/misinformation research? Basically just politics masquerading as science. Methodologies are invariably bogus and conclusions are clearly determined before any 'research' is done.

Epidemiology? A mix of bad incentives and ideological distortion. The focus on policy advice isn't really scientific, and their policies somehow always end up requiring massive state intervention in people's private lives. This isn't something that falls naturally out of the science (which is unreliable anyway) but more the fact that they don't even consider any other possibilities.

The above three are pretty bad fields. There are plenty of better ones. Computer science is mostly OK. AI and cryptography are slightly dubious. Stuff like databases or computer graphics are fine. So IMO it doesn't make sense to talk about research or academia in general, or it does but only when discussing the universal incentive problems. Some fields just seem naturally resistant to political game playing because they don't have much/any impact on social policy to begin with. Obviously I mean politics as in democratic politics here, not the more mundane everyday departmental politics.

Re: 'Serious errors' in research linking deaths to red meat

#135

As the replication crisis grows, or we're simply becoming more aware of it, I do wonder how much of this is due to poorly aligned incentives causing researchers to error on the side of what will get the most attention versus researchers in general simply being sloppy. Much discussion has been had on what to do if it is the former but if it is the latter, what needs to change in the education process so studies are be…

Individual studies shouldn't be the primary focus. It shouldn't fall to every individual researcher to be fully accurate and honest. This is just not possible because people are imperfect, and have all the wrong incentives in many cases. What we need is a system designed to deal with this better. My suggestion would be greater incentives to the publication of negative results, and incentives to reproduce research. Cr…

The problem is that for any sufficiently complex or advanced research there are enough variables to contend with that there are 1000s of ways to get "no repeatable result" and only a few to actually replicate. Knowing which variables need to be controlled is part of the expertise, training, and lore. Knowing when those variables are getting out of control and how to fix them early (knowing which knob or often combination of knobs are required) is yet more expertise and experience. This is true in physics, chemistry, biology, and electronic design. Getting a null result really is often simply a failure to properly run the experiment... and as a scientist it would be very easy to follow any documented "recipe" and fail to get the proper result in hundreds of different ways. That does not make one a great scientist. You can't even tell me every way it could be screwed up. I can always come up with a new one!

Programming is such a wonderfully controlled environment, it's digital, replicable, and _almost_ math-like. You can know the variables. You can trivially replicate a program, or dig down into the OS... but every physical experiment out there has much more common and worse problems than Spectre or Rowhammer waiting to destroy it. It's the cosmic rays.

Your equipment/materials/specimens gets contaminated or reacts or ages. Your ultrapure water isn't. There's a vibration that changes everything. Your calibration sample changes. Cleaning staff used a new cleaner. The AC turned on. Build your experiment to be impervious to all of these and everything else I can't think of... or use the intelligence of an expert. Get there faster, cheaper, and find better ways of doing it along the way.

You'ld be right to say that it should all be documented, but the problem is that you basically need to be an expert to even understand the variables and to those experts many variables are so obvious to control they wouldn't think of doing otherwise. To give concrete and extremely valuable examples in manufacturing: EUV systems for lithography, OLED deposition and patterning, Lithium battery electrode forming. You can have the very best and exquisitely designed equipment for manufacture and yet without experienced experts running the process (replicating the experiment day in and day out) it will go out of control and you will get garbage in a million ways. It's like amateurs playing chess against a master... where the master is the natural variation of the environment.

High value semi manufacturing is a great example of how hard it is. The processes are designed to be as simple as possible to replicate. You replicate every day as many times as possible. You have huge amounts of money and resources to succeed and sometimes you still fail. Getting to 10% yield/replication is a big step... getting to 50% maybe harder... then 90%... and higher. Novel science is often harder and there's much less money and the time to replicate could be months/result rather than 1000s of testable results/min.

Re: 'Serious errors' in research linking deaths to red meat

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that was true there would not be any need to declare funding. Let's be real, everyone is funding their own agenda. If some scientist finds some effect that helps a corp or an activist group further their own mission, they get funding. The finding might still be totally valid, but the visibility of the science and in particular the visibility of the science to the right people (legislators) can still be influenced…

So, the last 100 years of scientific research, then? As long as science was done properly, the results are valid (even if the opinions on what those results mean may not be). And if "not enough science was done" to rigorously investigate the entire landscape, that's not a failing of those doing the science. It's not their job to perform years-long work for nothing, so someone's going to have to pay for it, and academ…

Point is, you don't actually know what science is out there, because there are many layers between you and "the science". So people who mess with the visible of science or for that matter with the funding so that the science might not even happen, can influence your perception of what is true.

Re: 'Serious errors' in research linking deaths to red meat

#137

Every PhD student should, in order to obtain PhD, not only do his original research but reproduce another published result. This will make PhD harder to get, so PhD’s will become more valuable (and more vetted), and we will have people verify published studies.

Wow, I can't think of anything practically wrong with this.

I can think of plenty of reasons why it won't happen (notably the downward pressure on the candidate pipeline, which for a variety of reasons isn't an outcome research institutions don't want), but I'm wondering if the best place to apply the pressure would be the accreditation institutions and the Department of Education.

Re: 'Serious errors' in research linking deaths to red meat

#138

Every PhD student should, in order to obtain PhD, not only do his original research but reproduce another published result. This will make PhD harder to get, so PhD’s will become more valuable (and more vetted), and we will have people verify published studies.

We (as a society) might start with assigning more value to reproduction in general. There is an implicit assumption that reproduction and verification (or falsification) of published results is somehow not worthy of time and attention.

Re: 'Serious errors' in research linking deaths to red meat

#139

Every PhD student should, in order to obtain PhD, not only do his original research but reproduce another published result. This will make PhD harder to get, so PhD’s will become more valuable (and more vetted), and we will have people verify published studies.

> Every PhD student should, in order to obtain PhD, not only do his original research but reproduce another published result

Speaking for my own PhD (now around 25 years ago): it's hard enough getting one's own damned work to reproduce, never mind the work of a complete stranger.

Re: 'Serious errors' in research linking deaths to red meat

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politics and education are certainly factors, but I would argue that they are minor. The bigger issue is the natural incentive structures that academia has created. If you want to have a career, you get both attention and funding in return for headline-grabbing results. This creates two huge second-order effects: first, everyone's incentivized to look for big impressive new effects. Second, focusing on confirmatory w…

> Politics and education are certainly factors, but I would argue that they are minor Are they? If your proposed project does not align with current politics, no funding for you.

as has been the case in many, if not most, times, places, and contexts.
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