Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–280 of 385 posts

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#271

Post by benhurmarcel »

quickthrower2 wrote: post #95

Kind of depends what you are getting paid, but if it is less then $100k say, you can easily find remote jobs that pay more, play them off against each other. The companies are using sharp business practice to get you as cheap as possible, you can do the same to get as much as possible. Apply for 100 remote jobs, interview, smash the interviews, ask for top $ from all of them. See https://remoteok.com/ , etc. If on he…

> They would be crazy to let you go as $100k is still probably less than they are paying in the US if you are doing the same job.

But they wouldn't replace him with an American for >$100k, they'd replace him with another local for $50k.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#272

Post by benhurmarcel »

kleinsch wrote: post #22

Your pay is based on the cost to hire your replacement. That’s it. There’s no crazy conspiracies, there’s no moral failing, they’re not running a calculator of how much value you generate. Would it sap your motivation to learn there are people doing your same job at FAANGs making double what you make? Or that some other job makes more money than you? Location based pay is just another variable. As with everything in…

> Your pay is based on the cost to hire your replacement. That’s it.

That's not quite true.

The cost of hiring your replacement is only the maximum they'll accept to pay you. But they will pay you only slightly above what they think you'll find elsewhere. So your pay is the MIN(cost of your replacement, what they think you can get elsewhere).

That explains location-based pay for remote jobs. Because they take into account that your alternatives are mostly local, so they only have to compete with local rates. The only way out of this is to be willing to relocate, or convince them you're getting enough good remote offers that they have to compete with that.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#273

Post by crispyambulance »

patrulek wrote: post #250
SQueeeeeL wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don’t have other options, and if you quit, they know there will be 10 other people ready to take you place for those wages. I'm just imagining this dude quitting and his manager suddenly realizing that no one else knows anything about the parts he worked on and how fucked they are now. Just because a bunch of people could take your job doesn't mean they'll give a shit about the job. Good, well motivated, employ…

> I'm just imagining this dude quitting and his manager suddenly realizing that no one else knows anything about the parts he worked on and how fucked they are now. I would bet its rarely a case. We like to think that we are irreplacable, but after our quit company/project is still moving on.

> I would bet its rarely a case.

I agree that life goes on, but it's not rare at all. It happens all the time. People leave and things are f-d up for a while.

The thing is, it's not a permanent condition. People adapt, new hires are eventually found to fill the gap, or others who were thought of as not up to the task take the opportunity left by someone's absence to step up in their career.

One person leaving won't sink a company that is large enough. That doesn't mean it won't hurt, however. And how the company handles things after the departure is very critical.

Perhaps more important (and dangerous) is the morale hit that the others will feel as their peers start leaving. There very much can be a "rats-leaving-the-sinking-ship" effect that can be precipitated by a key person leaving.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#274

Post by imtringued »

soneca wrote: post #33

It is a negotiation not a fairness discussion (even though fairness is part of the negotiation arguments). I asked about it in my current job before accepting the offer and was able to successfully negotiate it. In your situation, it seems that the only way is to look for a new job. Anyway, the way I negotiated was very simple. Basically a version of ”I understand that this is a good salary relative to my local marke…

This is the reason why remote companies have cost of living adjustments. They don't want to compete with other remote companies but nothing is stopping you from just applying only to remote companies.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#275

Post by vladvasiliu »

herbst wrote: post #263
RestlessMind wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This isn't true at all in my experience, plenty of companies in Canada and the US hire across Canada and the US. It's practically the norm. Probably only after they get to a certain scale and cannot find more talent in Canada? When did Shopify start hiring in the US - right from the beginning?

Shopify did hire talent from Europe years ago. I would see them on every bigger networking event with glossy flyers about how they will pay for everything if you want to move and work there.

Europe is not equivalent to the US. Granted, it's outside Canada, but it's probably even cheaper than Canada.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#276

Post by vladvasiliu »

RestlessMind wrote: post #180
layoric wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if they quit, are you saying the company to refuse to hire a replacement from the US/EU due to some purely budget related limit? That is definitely not my experience working with a few remote first companies. They will try to find a suitable replacement in the relatively short period that is recruitment (1-3 months, depending on seniority). The cost difference for one employee is usually not big enough to worry ab…

> The opportunity cost of not having that senior dev on board for more than 3 months is damaging for rest of the team and company goals/time lines. I work with HR team who sets compensations for our global workforce. If you think that HR and leadership does not take this opportunity cost in consideration when setting policies, you are badly mistaken. They are very rational in their decision making.

But then, why would the company agree to an increase in compensation if OP moved elsewhere?

This is the point that doesn't make any sense. If it costs them X in OP's locale and 2X in EU, the company should kick them out if they decided to move and replace them with someone in the original locale, or maybe someplace even cheaper.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#277

Post by shetill »

soneca wrote: post #33

It is a negotiation not a fairness discussion (even though fairness is part of the negotiation arguments). I asked about it in my current job before accepting the offer and was able to successfully negotiate it. In your situation, it seems that the only way is to look for a new job. Anyway, the way I negotiated was very simple. Basically a version of ”I understand that this is a good salary relative to my local marke…

Where do you even find these remote US jobs, they are either some big US companies that have local offices or US startups that don't take non-US people?

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#278

Post by robertlagrant »

swatcoder wrote: post #85
kleinsch wrote: post #22

Your pay is based on the cost to hire your replacement. That’s it. There’s no crazy conspiracies, there’s no moral failing, they’re not running a calculator of how much value you generate. Would it sap your motivation to learn there are people doing your same job at FAANGs making double what you make? Or that some other job makes more money than you? Location based pay is just another variable. As with everything in…

> Your pay is based on the cost to hire your replacement. That’s it. Only in an imaginary world of perfect information and labor liquidity, which is about as far from what we have (and could have) as can be. Location-adjusted pay for remote US workers is indeed a social norm, proposed by some firms and accepted by enough of labor for it to work for them. It persists mostly because it exists and because there’s no org…

> Location-adjusted pay for remote US workers is indeed a social norm

That's backwards, though. It's a social norm because it's the most workable solution. Firms that overpay salaries (defining overpay as paying far above the market rate in any given region) will not be able to afford as many employees / highest quality employees / as much marketing / as much downturn stability or runway / as much other investment as their competitors, so they will lose on average.

And this makes sense. The same forces that drive salaries up (competition from other employers willing to employ the same person) also drive it down. You can't only have upside.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#279

Post by robertlagrant »

benhurmarcel wrote: post #272
kleinsch wrote: post #22

Your pay is based on the cost to hire your replacement. That’s it. There’s no crazy conspiracies, there’s no moral failing, they’re not running a calculator of how much value you generate. Would it sap your motivation to learn there are people doing your same job at FAANGs making double what you make? Or that some other job makes more money than you? Location based pay is just another variable. As with everything in…

> Your pay is based on the cost to hire your replacement. That’s it. That's not quite true. The cost of hiring your replacement is only the maximum they'll accept to pay you. But they will pay you only slightly above what they think you'll find elsewhere. So your pay is the MIN(cost of your replacement, what they think you can get elsewhere). That explains location-based pay for remote jobs. Because they take into ac…

I think it's 3 - the role has to be valuable enough to pay for:

MIN(cost of your replacement, what they think you can get elsewhere, your value to the company)

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#280

Post by badpun »

uf00lme wrote: post #198

I agree with you that most of the general HR arguments don’t hold water and are philosophical at best. All they try to do is hide the fact that you are not paid the way you are because of your talent or efforts. In most EU/commonwealth countries you can thank unionism for the benefits you have. For multinationals, one thing to note is the location of the employees normally has very little to do with the talent and st…

> Employee talent and costs are really generally not the focus of why companies setup shop where they do.

I don't think that's the case. For example, there are plenty of large, mutlinational companies opening offices in Poland and hiring hundreds or even thousands of devs there specifically because you can get competent people for a fraction of what they'd cost in the company's mother country. Also, of course it's important for them that Poland meets the sane baseline you'd expect from a civilized country, in terms of infrastructure, stability, rule of law etc. - but once these conditions are ok, I think it's mostly about the levels of pay. Most companies at the top levels are ruled by bean counters after all, and they're are always looking for ways to increase profit (and hence stock value) - and reducing wages is a great and easy fix for that.

Post reply on HN