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Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

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Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#171

Post by rootusrootus »

soneca wrote: post #147
rootusrootus wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's 100% correct that's simply a negotiation, and this is another variable. But if you came at me and told me I had to pay you what I pay my US employees, my first response would be "alright, but you have to work US hours and speak perfect American English." Honestly, that's a good part of why we try to hire in one general area, in this case the US. There is a real cost to foreign developers who only speak passable…

There is a lot between "passable" and "perfect" American english. I have far from "perfect" English, but in all my jobs as software developer for american companies (3 so far), I got great feedback for my communication skills. Mostly, being remote, is written communication, but still. I am close enough to US timezone (Brazil). So, I guess you would be paying me what you pay US employees as well :)

> There is a lot between "passable" and "perfect" American english.

Agreed.

> I am close enough to US timezone (Brazil). > So, I guess you would be paying me what you pay US employees as well :)

Works for me. I have no particular prejudice against any culture, my concerns are entirely practical. If you can participate in meetings during hours the rest of the team will be awake, and your English is good enough that everyone can understand 100% of what you say, you have equal value to someone sitting in the US.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#172

Post by googlryas »

wruza wrote: post #135
googlryas wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you accept if your landlord got upset when he saw how much some people are being charged for rent in silicon valley, and decided to triple your rent?

If it makes your neighborhood and/or city very similar to these in SV, why not?

Why would it? Paying someone in (say) Warsaw a SV salary isn't going to make Warsaw like SV either.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#173

Post by rootusrootus »

jbay808 wrote: post #116
rootusrootus wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's 100% correct that's simply a negotiation, and this is another variable. But if you came at me and told me I had to pay you what I pay my US employees, my first response would be "alright, but you have to work US hours and speak perfect American English." Honestly, that's a good part of why we try to hire in one general area, in this case the US. There is a real cost to foreign developers who only speak passable…

Sounds like you should hire Canadians!

We do have a Canadian office, in fact, though admittedly I don't think our company makes any effort to hire from there. At least nobody in my division of the company resides in Canada. Yet. One of my immediate coworkers is holds dual US/Canadian citizenship by birth and he is in the process of transferring his employment to the Canadian office because he is uncomfortable with increasingly acrimonious tribal politics of the US.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#174

Post by jogu »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #103
swatcoder wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your pay is based on the cost to hire your replacement. That’s it. Only in an imaginary world of perfect information and labor liquidity, which is about as far from what we have (and could have) as can be. Location-adjusted pay for remote US workers is indeed a social norm, proposed by some firms and accepted by enough of labor for it to work for them. It persists mostly because it exists and because there’s no org…

I'm emotionally with you, however the OP is right in that the GP most likely doesn't have any options other than quitting and going to a company that doesn't do this OP is also correct in that the following is how HR at almost every large company thinks about comp: 1. Comp is usually not set by a Hiring Manager and is specifically based on "comparable" which is based on job type and location. 2. Job type and location…

Just a small nit but I think you mixed up OP (Original Poster) and GP (Grand Parent).

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#175

Post by RestlessMind »

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #160
derefr wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bay Area companies hire in the Bay Area, for the same reason companies are founded in the Bay Area to begin with: because most of the VCs in the US live in the Bay Area. And Bay Area investors care a lot about having a package of colocated staff "human assets" that put an acquihire-based floor on the company's acquisition price. Companies that don't operate from the Bay Area, almost never hire Bay Area remote workers…

> Source: we are a Canadian company, and hire from everywhere but the US. I don't follow. This isn't true at all in my experience, plenty of companies in Canada and the US hire across Canada and the US. It's practically the norm. If you work for a Canadian company that doesn't hire in the US then you're comically underpaid. Wages are converging very fast. Many companies are paying parity and frankly folks are selling…

> This isn't true at all in my experience, plenty of companies in Canada and the US hire across Canada and the US. It's practically the norm.

Probably only after they get to a certain scale and cannot find more talent in Canada? When did Shopify start hiring in the US - right from the beginning?

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#177

Post by RestlessMind »

rtlfe wrote: post #57
kleinsch wrote: post #22

Your pay is based on the cost to hire your replacement. That’s it. There’s no crazy conspiracies, there’s no moral failing, they’re not running a calculator of how much value you generate. Would it sap your motivation to learn there are people doing your same job at FAANGs making double what you make? Or that some other job makes more money than you? Location based pay is just another variable. As with everything in…

> Your pay is based on the cost to hire your replacement. That's not necessarily true. Many fully remote companies hire from anywhere and pay location-adjusted wages. So it's a roll of the dice whether the replacement makes more or less than you.

I don't see how that contradicts GP's point ("Your pay is based on the cost to hire your replacement.")

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#178

Post by RestlessMind »

pyrodactyl wrote: post #55
kleinsch wrote: post #22

Your pay is based on the cost to hire your replacement. That’s it. There’s no crazy conspiracies, there’s no moral failing, they’re not running a calculator of how much value you generate. Would it sap your motivation to learn there are people doing your same job at FAANGs making double what you make? Or that some other job makes more money than you? Location based pay is just another variable. As with everything in…

Its not a crazy conspiracy, I know it's pretty clear why it's being done. And I know I can't do anything about it other than look for new opportunities. But should location based pay be just accepted because that's the norm? There are variables that can't be used to do discriminate like age, gender, race, sexual orientation etc. We've accepted equal pay for equal work in these cases. Is it that far fetched that even…

> But should location based pay be just accepted because that's the norm?

If we don't accept location based pay and start paying a uniform global salary, the wages will sync to Asian job market level rather than rising to SV level. Any company doing so will not be able to hire anyone in SV.

OTOH any company paying SV level wages to everyone will do so only for a short while before they realize that they can increase the profit by reducing pay elsewhere. Why would they not do that?

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#179

Post by RichardCNormos »

kleinsch wrote: post #22

Your pay is based on the cost to hire your replacement. That’s it. There’s no crazy conspiracies, there’s no moral failing, they’re not running a calculator of how much value you generate. Would it sap your motivation to learn there are people doing your same job at FAANGs making double what you make? Or that some other job makes more money than you? Location based pay is just another variable. As with everything in…

> Your pay is based on the cost to hire your replacement.

And my effort is also based on the cost to hire my replacement.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#180

Post by RestlessMind »

layoric wrote: post #163
Panzer04 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re missing the point. Location based pay is not the norm, the norm is paying you as much as it would cost to find an equivalent replacement. That just happens to be location-dependant. It’s got nothing to do with discrimination, it’s purely about hiring for the lowest cost. They have to pay more in EU and US to get employees, and less wherever you live.

So if they quit, are you saying the company to refuse to hire a replacement from the US/EU due to some purely budget related limit? That is definitely not my experience working with a few remote first companies. They will try to find a suitable replacement in the relatively short period that is recruitment (1-3 months, depending on seniority). The cost difference for one employee is usually not big enough to worry ab…

> The opportunity cost of not having that senior dev on board for more than 3 months is damaging for rest of the team and company goals/time lines.

I work with HR team who sets compensations for our global workforce. If you think that HR and leadership does not take this opportunity cost in consideration when setting policies, you are badly mistaken. They are very rational in their decision making.

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