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After self-hosting my email for twenty-three years I have thrown in the towel

cfenollosa.com

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Re: After self-hosting my email for twenty-three years I have thrown in the towel

#121
I hosted my mailman stack on VPS for some time, it worked well

I stopped self-hosting because it's too much hassle, but it was any difficult to maintain, (by difficult I mean complex)

It didn't worth the time I spent though, so I quit, but I would do it again if I need to

If I had to maintain a server at home and my ISP blocks it, I would get a VPS and host proxies on the VPS and use VPN tunnel to keep the mails stored locally

But I don't have any reason to do that currently, as well as most people

Re: After self-hosting my email for twenty-three years I have thrown in the towel

#122
post #6

For those interested, I made a post related to this topic a few months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31180379

You start with the premise that you can't host your own email, which is problematic. I don't know why the people who fail at self-hosting email are so adamant about telling others that nobody should self-host, but it seems more like a squeaky wheel problem than a real one.

In every scenario, deliverability problems can be solved by smarthosting through a reputable email provider. Period.

You get all the benefits of your own filtering, your own logs showing every delivery attempt, you get to store your data on your own systems, access it however you prefer, et cetera - all the reasons to self-host are there except for delivery logs, and those can be arranged through your smarthost provider.

Simple, huh? So why are so many people emphatically telling us to NOT self-host email?

Re: After self-hosting my email for twenty-three years I have thrown in the towel

#123

Sending email out is a royal pain. Trying to deal with a Microsoft ban on my IP even though it’s sparkling clean for several years. DKIM, DMARC, SPF etc all ser up, reverse dns, you name it. Looks like Linode is being blocked as a whole pretty much? Hate the level of centralization, particularly since there’s still a shit ton of spam still around. Sorry for the rant. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/answers/questions…

I've been running a private mailserver for myself and a couple of friends since 2002. I hit a similar issue with Microsoft last year.

I route outgoing mail to hotmail.com, live.com, outlook.com and msn.com domains via email-smtp.us-east-2.amazonaws.com. I started doing this when I noticed a large portion of e-commerce email I was receiving originated from amazon vms and they clearly had no deliverability issues.

The ability to do this is a paid-for service, and needs to be configured appropriately. I was expecting to have to pay for a VM when I set out to do this. However, it turns out you do not need that - you can just configure the SMTP forwarding without needing to purchase any other products, and the cost for this is a few cents per 10k emails, which I can see would be significant for commercial services and/or spammers, but for a private mail server essentially means I will never have to pay. Amazon go to great pains to maintain deliverability for those servers, so you don't have to.

I don't really see a problem with adding one extra SMTP hop to outgoing emails tbh, but as no-one other than Microsoft has (to date) a permanent IP block ban with no recourse whatsoever policy, while I've had transient issues with most other big providers at one time or another, those four Microsoft domains remain the only destination I have to route this way.

Re: After self-hosting my email for twenty-three years I have thrown in the towel

#124
post #111

Sending email out is a royal pain. Trying to deal with a Microsoft ban on my IP even though it’s sparkling clean for several years. DKIM, DMARC, SPF etc all ser up, reverse dns, you name it. Looks like Linode is being blocked as a whole pretty much? Hate the level of centralization, particularly since there’s still a shit ton of spam still around. Sorry for the rant. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/answers/questions…

> Trying to deal with a Microsoft ban on my IP https://sendersupport.olc.protection.outlook.com/snds/index....

Thanks I’ll check it out. The bounce link was to an office 365 spam delist portal. My request was auromatically rejected and my only option was to escalate it to support (one click luckily). I’m yet to hear back, but from the stories on the link I shared, I doubt it will do anything.

Re: After self-hosting my email for twenty-three years I have thrown in the towel

#125

We need kubernetes level of distributed messaging system to beat email. What’s most popular next option?

Matrix protocol. Can be bridged with existing platforms and protocols, including Facebook Messenger, WhatsApp, and email. 60m+ publicly addressable users, not including EU military, gov, healthcare, emergency services et al.

Re: After self-hosting my email for twenty-three years I have thrown in the towel

#127
Hard to untangle the incentive for collusion + need to police legit bad behavior.

This could be a few large providers saying 'we control most email traffic, let's control all email traffic'. Or it could be serious players saying 'spam hurts our users, let's stop criminals using a blanket rule'.

More likely it's a schelling point where large players are rent-seeking (crowding out some competition), but only to the extent they can preserve the illusion this is about policing spam.

Suspect we'll start asking platforms to offer something like due process in the law -- administrative checks that increase the cost to administer a system, and reduce the quality to end users, but increase transparency and make it harder for the platform to engage in corruption.

Re: After self-hosting my email for twenty-three years I have thrown in the towel

#128
post #71

I'm on 12 years of self hosting email and counting. Once every so often, I do end up being blocked, usually by Outlook and once by Yahoo. I'm in their 'sender program' and they still don't actually bother to contact postmaster@, but a few emails is usually enough to unblock the block within 24h. Agree with a sibling comment that many major providers fail to operate the SPF/DKIM/DMARC tools they insist you do. Each to…

Agree completely.

To those that still persist, there is a page I found recently that helps you make sure that your outgoing mail is configured correctly: https://appmaildev.com/en/dkim. They generate an e-mail address, you send a mail to them, they do the check and display results (not affiliated, just a happy user).

Re: After self-hosting my email for twenty-three years I have thrown in the towel

#129
post #21

The sweet spot for having control over your email while simultaneously minimizing unforseen headaches is to simply own your domain name and point the MX record to whatever hosting provider you want instead of self-hosting a server at home. Same philosophy for exposing a your personal blog of html files or content like mp4 videos. The sweet spot is to focus on buying a domain name you control. Then let Amazon S3, or C…

"The sweet spot for having control over your email while simultaneously minimizing unforseen headaches is to simply own your domain name" You would think. The issue no one seems to think about is that you need to make sure to pay for the domain for the duration of your life(at least). Otherwise, as soon as you lose your domain you lose ownership of your email. Any one that has control of the domain has control of you…

> The issue no one seems to think about is that you need to make sure to pay for the domain for the duration of your life

But that's true for any delivery endpoint in any medium, including physical mail and phone numbers.

It's pretty easy to set up auto-pay for domain names so that all you really need to do is keep the billing info up to date. After that it all runs on autopilot.

Re: After self-hosting my email for twenty-three years I have thrown in the towel

#130
post #21

The sweet spot for having control over your email while simultaneously minimizing unforseen headaches is to simply own your domain name and point the MX record to whatever hosting provider you want instead of self-hosting a server at home. Same philosophy for exposing a your personal blog of html files or content like mp4 videos. The sweet spot is to focus on buying a domain name you control. Then let Amazon S3, or C…

"The sweet spot for having control over your email while simultaneously minimizing unforseen headaches is to simply own your domain name" You would think. The issue no one seems to think about is that you need to make sure to pay for the domain for the duration of your life(at least). Otherwise, as soon as you lose your domain you lose ownership of your email. Any one that has control of the domain has control of you…

You can always use a different email address to manage the domain if that's the issue?
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