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Ask HN: The most efficient method of conveying information is face-to-face

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Re: Ask HN: The most efficient method of conveying information is face-to-face

#11

Post by necovek »

> assuming it works flawlessly, text always does

Uhm, text never works flawlessly!

Direct face-to-face communication has the benefit of additional cues (facial expression) and ability to interrupt and explain any disagreements and misunderstandings right away.

Text has the benefit of being easily referenced (whether for clarification or historical referral), as you point out, and allows one to think through before replying (though that's not excluded from live conversation: "I need some time to process this").

As others point out, this means there is no universal answer: but it also means that for whatever tough decisions you need to communicate, it's best done with a live conversation, followed by a written note.

Re: Ask HN: The most efficient method of conveying information is face-to-face

#12

Post by r_hoods_ghost »

Yeah the agile manifesto has some problems and I feel like the bits that are problematic (like information is best transmitted face to face) are often pursued, while the bits that are really important (people over processes) are often ignored. I mean an entire, widely followed cult (scrum) has grown up around the idea that process is more important than people and that if you just follow the process everything will be amazing.

On topic. I think it depends on the information. Factual information, design requirements, anything quantitative, anything that needs to be referred back to, should be communicated in writing. Justifications and decision making however is often best done face to face as the latency is kept to a minimum. Asking someone why did you take this decision, why that, how about, could we? over email takes a lot of time, whereas doing it face to face allows you to quickly bang through all the important questions and sign off on decisions.

Really important thing in these types of meetings is to have a note taker / scribe who is independent, or get an automated transcript so you can refer back, especially if you are working in an adversarial environment with competing interests / views.

Re: Ask HN: The most efficient method of conveying information is face-to-face

#13

Post by necovek »

lioeters wrote: post #4

For remote work, async communication via email - often long discussions over weeks and months, with links, lists, and images. For me, that is superior to any synchronous forms of communication that require all participants to be there at the same time (around the world), such as video, voice, or text chats. For family, friends, and personal relationships, there's nothing that replaces being together in the same time…

> long discussions over weeks and months

I think you effectively support agile manifesto's point here: there is nothing agile about long discussions over weeks and months.

Re: Ask HN: The most efficient method of conveying information is face-to-face

#14

Post by gregjor »

Surplus7421 wrote: post #3
gregjor wrote: post #2

Wow, mind blown. Effectively refuting a core principle of the Agile Manifesto, as you have done, calls the entire Manifesto and Agile itself into question.

This is my subjective opinion, and I would like to know what others think. I might very well be objectively wrong for all I know. The manifesto was written 20+ years ago, when the situation might have been different, so I wouldn't be calling it out because it might have been true in that time.

The Agile Manifesto lists ideas and guidelines, not inviolable rules from a burning bush. The author didn’t have all the answers or a crystal ball. Take what you can use, adapt what you can.

One thing decades of software development teaches us: no one knows how to do it right reliably and consistently. No silver bullet. No one right way. Try ideas that seem to make sense and have worked for others, but avoid ideologies and self-proclaimed experts.

Re: Ask HN: The most efficient method of conveying information is face-to-face

#15

Post by Tomte »

necovek wrote: post #11

> assuming it works flawlessly, text always does Uhm, text never works flawlessly! Direct face-to-face communication has the benefit of additional cues (facial expression) and ability to interrupt and explain any disagreements and misunderstandings right away. Text has the benefit of being easily referenced (whether for clarification or historical referral), as you point out, and allows one to think through before re…

The other way around: get the facts on the table beforehand. Written, so that everyone knows what it's about.

Then do the negotiation and decision face-to-face.

Otherwise your face-to-face talk is just everyone waiting for their turn, trying to remember which points they still need to reply to, and nobody listens to anybody else.

Re: Ask HN: The most efficient method of conveying information is face-to-face

#17

Post by necovek »

inphovore wrote: post #5

> Agile Manifesto states: The most efficient and effective method of conveying information to and within a development team is face-to-face conversation. I refute this claim explicitly. Written communications which are competently complete are superior to face to face in that memory and real time interpretation fail in comparison to the availability of objectively empirical reference. The operating imperative is “com…

> The operating imperative is “complete”, and that all sides are “competently” literate.

That's completely false. There are so many ways to misinterpret any communication.

I've so far learned that it's not even sufficient to be "completely" precise: people will "read between the lines" or simply glance over some words and not give weight to every word you may have chosen carefully. And that's normal in a human communication.

Sweet point to me is having a video call (in remote work) where you are taking notes together and agree on summary points (actions, decisions, any points of confusion and contention...) at the end.

Re: Ask HN: The most efficient method of conveying information is face-to-face

#18

Post by necovek »

Tomte wrote: post #15
necovek wrote: post #11

> assuming it works flawlessly, text always does Uhm, text never works flawlessly! Direct face-to-face communication has the benefit of additional cues (facial expression) and ability to interrupt and explain any disagreements and misunderstandings right away. Text has the benefit of being easily referenced (whether for clarification or historical referral), as you point out, and allows one to think through before re…

The other way around: get the facts on the table beforehand. Written, so that everyone knows what it's about. Then do the negotiation and decision face-to-face. Otherwise your face-to-face talk is just everyone waiting for their turn, trying to remember which points they still need to reply to, and nobody listens to anybody else.

Sure, face-to-face without any prep is only acceptable for one-on-one talks (depending on the type of conversation, maybe a small number of people too).

Having a clear goal (that everybody knows) for any discussion involving multiple people is a must, definitely.

Re: Ask HN: The most efficient method of conveying information is face-to-face

#19

Post by inphovore »

necovek wrote: post #17
inphovore wrote: post #5

> Agile Manifesto states: The most efficient and effective method of conveying information to and within a development team is face-to-face conversation. I refute this claim explicitly. Written communications which are competently complete are superior to face to face in that memory and real time interpretation fail in comparison to the availability of objectively empirical reference. The operating imperative is “com…

> The operating imperative is “complete”, and that all sides are “competently” literate. That's completely false. There are so many ways to misinterpret any communication. I've so far learned that it's not even sufficient to be "completely" precise: people will "read between the lines" or simply glance over some words and not give weight to every word you may have chosen carefully. And that's normal in a human commun…

what you describe is the kind of incompetence that makes companies require degrees.

Re: Ask HN: The most efficient method of conveying information is face-to-face

#20

Post by inphovore »

intelVISA wrote: post #10
inphovore wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find real time makes people lazy and “take things for granted.” How many times have you spent hours+ discussing a topic only to walk away and someone to say “oh, and one more thing…” only to finally get to the most important missing piece? If you don’t expect others to be there “at the beck and call”, where your arse will be on the line for functional results, the pseudo-contract of explicit text is king!

We're social by nature. I'm quite extroverted, face to face is risky for me I'll have a great time but miss the point if I'm not focused. Text removes the pleasantries and makes it business-first. In the WFH/post-COVID era the main reason we (in engineering) still do face to face is to keep Agile grifters in a job. Would be terrible if people could just write what they wanted without a handler there to marshal.

Your self awareness is appreciable.

I’m an introspective introvert, so don’t mind me!

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