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Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

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Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that instead of turning a tactile dial I need to look away from the road to adjust temperature or volume if music, or I need to speak, is unacceptable to me. I consider ut terrible in terms of safety and UI.

> or I need to speak, is unacceptable to me. I consider ut terrible in terms of safety and UI Speaking is terrible for safety now?

In addition to the sibling coment, I also spend much more time distracted and listening to the response from the car to make sure it understood me that I would spend just turning a dial/pressing the button.

And I still have to glance at the screen to see that it did what I told it to do. Especially in the case of quite frequent failures to understand me.

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#242
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pay and benefits are good, 40 h/w + extra when overtime happens, 30 day vacation,....

That's the default for everyone working in Europe

It's not. Most jobs in most countries get less than 30 days vacation. Germany's German speaking neighbors it's 25 days.

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#243
post #15

I've been following this debacle in the German press and I think there's a structural problem that they will struggle to dig their way out of. And by "they" I don't mean just VW, but much of European industry. Software is simply not valued in Europe, and not because there aren't amazing developers there -- there are many. But software isn't considered important Let's start with cars. Back before cars were just comput…

Great post! I would like to add, that Diess seemingly understood at least the strategic importance of this and invested heavily. The execution is (until now) just very bad. The German brands don’t “get” software the way e.g Tesla does. Funny enough, Musk said that Tesla is not even all that great in Software (exclude FSD). It’s just everybody else is so much worse. There is a great divide between them who feel softwa…

I don't want software in my car being treated the same way andorid is on my phone. If everything is running, I want it as an embedded system that just runs. No OTA updates, air gapped to everything else, entertainment not connected in anyway to the running of the car.

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have just convinced me to buy German cars exclusively from now on; I very much do not want a car which is "just a computer with wheels" - the less software in the car, the better!

On the other hand, "German overengineering" (the mechanical side) is also a thing. Not as in built with huge margins and robustness, but intricate and overly complex.

Fun fact: There is no direct German translation for over-engineering.

EDIT: And now imagine what happens when the German drive to over engineer stuff, we do it with everything, not just hardware, meets software development for a complex system like a car... Then you get, well, VW.

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#245
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what software you are referring to. But with the IVI, which is what users interact with, the difference is night and day. Most cars have shitty, laggy IVI that will get no meaningful updates. You are on many cases almost forced to use Apple/Android Car. Teslas give you more of an Apple treatment. You will receive meaningful updates for years. It is mostly fluid and good looking. It is exciting for the pe…

>Teslas give you more of an Apple treatment. You will receive meaningful updates for years. What is the cutoff for Tesla cars receiving software updates? Are the early models no longer supported?

At the moment even the earliest 2012/2013 Model S still receive updates. Those updates don’t contain all the fanciest features anymore, because they’re limited by the specs of the system (1), but you still get map updates, small improvements and gimmicks. The last update for the old cars introduced Tidal as a music streaming service (2), for example.

(1) Cars that old come with what’s called MCU0 or MCU1. They’re both running on a Nvidia Tegra chip. MCU2 uses Intel Atom and MCU3 uses AMD Ryzen. For 1500 euro you can update on any car from MCU0 and MCU1 to MCU2. Even the old 2012 models.

(2) Tidal was already available for newer cars with MCU2 since end of ‘21.

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in the web / ad space you mean.

Nope. The biggest european software company is, what, the german SAP. And SAP is tiny compared to US software companies. Europe has something like six companies in the top 100 software companies when ranked by market cap and only one in the top 10 (the german SAP). That's hardly being a "significant player in the non web / non ad space".

Out of curiosity, I just checked a rabdom Top 100 list. It seems to be market cap based, which in itself is a problem. What struck me is the absence of Dassault Systems for example while AutoDesk is in the top 50.

I do agree so that in Germany software as a stand alone thing has close to zero perceived value. If it is embedded in hardware, sure, it is important. Not as important as it could be, and it will always be seen as one part of many.

When it comes to stuff like MS Office, software is a tool, nothing else. As long as its working people a re happy using it.

The big devide, and I think it is a HN thing mostly, is how much importance software is given by people. Obviously, HN is giving it a lot.

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#248
Not only car manufacturers but any other appliences and products relying on software struggle. It is 'only' more prominent with safety critical products like cars and airplanes. The absolute and relative (fit to purpose) quality of software are awful in more and more products, incerasingly so. I myself experience it in phones, computers (operating systems and applications), dedicated media players daily, while avoiding app heavy things like robotic vacuum cleaner not working without connecting to the network and a mobile phone (crazy!!), dishwashers with firmware update, etc. All this despite that I make my living on software.

Very badly made unfinished and not thought throw implementations are shipped while the content is artificially inflated pumping too much and too complex into, and sometimes - when the ideology of the organization sets it on flags as strategy - simplified on the surface (UI) to the level destroying essential functionality. Squeezing unnecessarily amount of functionality into "clean and streamline" interface not adequate to handle that complexity while accepting the culture of unfinished/incomplete products: advertising the product update - which many times ruin not improves - as good thing and not in its place: the praising of an unfinished product.

Software that is supposed to make life easier making life harder and ruining previously good concepts (e.g. substandard touch screen instead of buttons). Instead of just doing something easy smoothly the user increasingly have to tinker and tune the product (configure, setup) long to bring it to the minimum level of functionality making it a very high maintenance thing (also bringing in risks and security concerns unheard of before).

It is a daily struggle that badly designed and executed software ruins the experience. The internet is full with workarounds for products, there are sites making living on that.

Looking for household appliances like vacuum, dishwasher, fridge now is more difficult because of novelty but unnecessary software supported features sweep into the picture making the search and usage more difficult than necessary (but basically just avoiding those having faulty software) and the product unreliable. Forcing software everywhere is making things worse. Not to mention the rushed and poor quality, intentionally incomplete release of software that escalates the troubles even more.

Software is not the holy grail, far from it! It is just a tool to be used in the proper setting, in the proper level or amount, and should be made properly for that.

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#249
I've been working in the field - and for VW specifically - for the past couple of years and am constantly amazed by how far they are actually behind in terms of software and overall technical infrastructure.

Especially germans are too stuck in their industrial past - we don't really understand the value and leverage of software for business cases.

The car industry is built upon great designers and engineers, outsourcing the actual production of parts to other entities - they're not really used to building anything on their own, they just assemble things. I've written about this here [1].

While this way of thinking isn't limited to automakers, they're the ones that will suffer the most from it in the future. True innovation has been lost to the industry decades ago and is additionally blocked by holding on to the status quo instead of experimenting with and developing new things.

I believe this stems from the fact that most of our big businesses are run by MBAs with no real understanding for trends and even less for the speed at which the world moves forward in terms of technology.

Diess himself at least tried to push something forward others have neglected since the 90s. Not sure how Blume will approach this, but since he's grown inside the VW bubble for almost 30 years I would not assume that he can drive any kind of real innovation forward.

[1] https://derfabianpeter.substack.com/p/europe-and-the-cloud

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