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Blocking Kiwifarms

blog.cloudflare.com

341–350 of 1001 posts

Re: Blocking Kiwifarms

#341

There were no good choices for Cloudflare here, and everyone across the internet who jams their fingers in their ears and shouts their position repeatedly is just contributing to the problem. Private companies should not be the de facto moderators of free speech in our society. They are forced into that position by woefully inadequate governance by legal authorities operating multiple decades behind the current lands…

Hate speech is legal by design.

There is already illegal speech, not all speech is protected.

If they broke the law, charge them with crimes.

If they didn’t, ignore them.

Re: Blocking Kiwifarms

#344
Well I run a service with 100 million registered users and this is why we don't use Cloudflare. We use VeriSign BGP DDoS mitigation which is more expensive than Cloudflare (about 27k per year with our traffic) but i don't have the luxury of losing the business on a Saturday afternoon on a whim of an anonymous Cloudflare censor, their lawyer or even his Majesty Matthew Prince Himself making a preemptive liability decision on behalf of my own business.

I know that Google takes those deplatforming decisions with ease, because they have billions of users but with Cloudflare's much more finite enterprise userbase, I would be careful to aspire to Google's heavy handed approach: for Cloudflare's customers, real money and real jobs are at stake.

Re: Blocking Kiwifarms

#345

There were no good choices for Cloudflare here, and everyone across the internet who jams their fingers in their ears and shouts their position repeatedly is just contributing to the problem. Private companies should not be the de facto moderators of free speech in our society. They are forced into that position by woefully inadequate governance by legal authorities operating multiple decades behind the current lands…

Why shouldn't we prefer private parties administer the free speech which is most fitting for their platform, as opposed to overly broad legislation at the national level by a government which doesn't appear like they'll catch up on tech within 5 years?

Pressuring government does not mean that the government will suddenly develop technical expertise. Even if the "right people" are voted into government at every level possible in a simultaneous magical moment, it would still take years for the government to develop its own internal consensus as to the state of problems and solutions & to slowly develop a workforce to administer technical policy. But one must question as to whether this is even in the cards for your respective nation.

In the meantime, if we prefer companies deal with the matter, people who don't like how things are done at least have the mere theoretical possibility of going it another way, assuming your market isn't so unhealthy as to only permit one entity (in which case you have a problem which a non-technical government may be able to deal with). The government issues monolithic force-backed policy, whereas the free market can create a diverse product ecosystem for different kinds of people.

And isn't the authority which is exercised by companies one which is ultimately quite fundamental — the freedom of association? The freedom to not have relations with those you don't want to talk to? Everyone should be free to yell their message on public property, but people should also be free to withdraw from each other if they no longer wish to be related. It is questionable to say that free speech must hinge on whether one party wishes to be related to another, especially when that other party has to maintain their services via expensive engineers.

Re: Blocking Kiwifarms

#347

Good. I'm sorry, I'm generally Mr. "Raw raw free speech", but let's not kid ourselves; by all accounts KiwiFarms is (and always has been) a cesspool of horrible people. It's not like 4chan or something, where it might have started with reasonable intentions and just became horrible; KiwiFarms was started for the specific purpose of bullying Chris-Chan, hence why it was initially called Cwcki Farms. KiwiFarms has been…

The part that’s missing here is that the people KF are fighting are on the exact same level. Keffals doxed the KF owner’s mom, lied about the mom being an active KF user and called for her firing:

https://archive.ph/15nHu

Keffals has called for SWATing:

https://web.archive.org/web/20220810180051/https://twitter.c...

Do you really think a KF user would SWAT a GOP Congresswoman in the middle of this fight over their DDoS protection, and the call the cops to identify themselves as a specific Kiwi Farms user (moderator “AltisticRight”), one who denies any involvement in this? To me that sounds highly suspect. We will likely never know the truth.

And here’s a box of the Internet pharmacy hormones Keffals instructs kids to buy and self-dose in secret, without medical evaluation or parental knowledge:

https://archive.ph/zZMRp

See “Homebrew”, first shop link:

https://archive.ph/K9hh4

Re: Blocking Kiwifarms

#348

There were no good choices for Cloudflare here, and everyone across the internet who jams their fingers in their ears and shouts their position repeatedly is just contributing to the problem. Private companies should not be the de facto moderators of free speech in our society. They are forced into that position by woefully inadequate governance by legal authorities operating multiple decades behind the current lands…

Let's not obscure things by calling it an issue of "hate speech." That is an impermissible broadening. As they said, "hard cases make bad law." The only way to mitigate the badness is to make the decision as narrow as possible. It's about illegal threats of violence. Those were against the law long before anyone ever used the term "hate speech."

Then it seems to me the problem here is insufficient law enforcement response.

If the illegal threats of violence aren’t being handled properly by law enforcement, that is not CF’s failure.

They feel forced to act because the FBI is incompetent.

Re: Blocking Kiwifarms

#349
post #71

There were no good choices for Cloudflare here, and everyone across the internet who jams their fingers in their ears and shouts their position repeatedly is just contributing to the problem. Private companies should not be the de facto moderators of free speech in our society. They are forced into that position by woefully inadequate governance by legal authorities operating multiple decades behind the current lands…

Private companies should not be the de facto moderators of free speech Hate speech and organizing to harass and other IRL hate acts is not ‘free speech’. That was the major point.

yes it is. free speech as a philosophy is about allowing all speech, cause other it's just mostly free speech.

you're just using the words to act like you have a moral high ground you don't actually have.

Re: Blocking Kiwifarms

#350
post #53

Cloudflare can do whatever it wants but I wish they were honest about it. The claim that there has been some “dangerous escalation” in the past 2 weeks is nonsense. If anything the owner has been monitoring the thread more proactively and making sure people follow the law. This is included not allowing the creation of new accounts and reminding everyone that their data will be turned over to the authorities should it…

> The claim that there has been some “dangerous escalation” in the past 2 weeks is nonsense. I don’t believe you have the same information as cloudflare and assuming good faith I believe them when they say there are legitimate threats to body and person. They have a responsibility to their investors to insure that their brand isn’t used to coordinate violence. Dont just shrug your shoulders while a small group invite…

>I don’t believe you have the same information as cloudflare and assuming good faith I believe them when they say there are legitimate threats to body and person.

There are "legitimate threats to body and person." on every chat platform everyday. Yet they are still operating.

Could this offending content not be reported to moderators and admins?

Edit: Just flag and downvote me with no reply, good discussion. This site is turning into facebook/reddit.

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