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Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

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Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#21

Post by gumby »

adventured wrote: post #11

Producing really good software is really hard. Here's a tip for all the backwards big companies in Europe: pay your software engineers a lot more. Whatever you're paying now, increase it by 2x-3x. If you want the best, you're going to have to pay for it, or you're going to suffer the predictably mediocre results indefinitely (to the benefit of Tesla & Co.; Tesla's sales are now up to $67 billion; that's closing in on…

The salaries are a symptom of the problem, not the cause. Most companies in the world (though Europe in particular has no excuse) don't understand that software is a strategic (and existential) issue, so pay for it like any other thing in their BOM.

cf my long comment on this subject.

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#22

Post by amluto »

gumby wrote: post #15

I've been following this debacle in the German press and I think there's a structural problem that they will struggle to dig their way out of. And by "they" I don't mean just VW, but much of European industry. Software is simply not valued in Europe, and not because there aren't amazing developers there -- there are many. But software isn't considered important Let's start with cars. Back before cars were just comput…

> But ("FSD" excepted) they spend more of their attention on what really matters: treating their vehicle as a modern electronic device.

Yet even Tesla does a rather bad job at this — they consider it to be a modern electronic device and ignore the wheels. OTA updates regularly change the UI in a way that is difficult and dangerous to learn when the wheels are spinning. Even when familiar with it, the very basics are hidden in menus and cannot be used without looking away from the road for longer than is safe.

Car companies: make your car software simple, reliable, and boring. You may well need to spend serious money doing this, but the goal should not be for it to be fancy or to feel extremely modern.

(With the latest update, turning off the seat heater is buried in a menu. I still haven’t figured out how to efficiently dismiss overlay apps that are covering the map. It used to be fairly obvious.)

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#23

Post by tsunamifury »

I had a Porsche Taycan almost kill me and my entire family due to the absolutely negligent engineering team at porsche. An update was applied which killed the motor due to a stack overflow error — while driving! Porsche set up the error handling to kill the engine immediately with even the slightest error.

I testified along with fellow owners to the NHTSA and got all Taycans recalled. The arrogance and denial that Porsche put owners through was shocking through the process. They displayed a complete lack of understanding of the basics of control systems and software safety.

Needless to say I sold the Taycan and would never buy a VW electric product. I wrote them a letter and spoke to the safety team saying people will die from this sloppiness and lack of professionalism. Someone will pay. Turned out I was right

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#24

Post by callalex »

Gordonjcp wrote: post #17
dependsontheq wrote: post #8

I wouldn't call it "woes". I have been driving an VW ID 3 since last year, it runs their custom Android OS System and should have all of the latest features. It has been quite an experience. The car is fine, basic driving functions are fine, even the driver assist features are generally fine if they are running. The software running all the displays and the "augmented" heads up display is ridiculous. The car one did…

I've been driving a 27-year-old Range Rover for a year. Sometimes I need to hold the ignition key close to the receiver in the rear window for it to lock. Sometimes I need to jiggle the steering lock a little for the flappy door to close and tell it the key is out, before it will lock. Sometimes I need to poke the "petrol flap" button a couple of times before the flap will open. Sometimes the radio doesn't really get…

The crash safety of a modern car is just not even in the same world as older cars. That’s why I put up with all the jankiness. You can drive perfectly and still end up in a bad collision that was someone else’s fault.

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#25

Post by geodel »

gumby wrote: post #15

I've been following this debacle in the German press and I think there's a structural problem that they will struggle to dig their way out of. And by "they" I don't mean just VW, but much of European industry. Software is simply not valued in Europe, and not because there aren't amazing developers there -- there are many. But software isn't considered important Let's start with cars. Back before cars were just comput…

People should try to reconcile the facts that those outrageously high FAANG salaries occurs because of

1) Near monopoly in that sector 2) Excessive surveillance and tracking users 3) Increasing inequality between haves and have nots.

And non-FAANG type IT worker are also paid relatively high at the cost of other workers living perilous lives.

So unless Europeans really start cherishing these "values". They are not gonna get US level salaries. The way I see quite a lot non-US / European people just like high salaries but never want to think where it really come from.

All this talk about Europe does not respect/appreciate / values Software engineers sounds more and more like coded way to say We, software people, deserve much higher salaries at the cost of everyone else.

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#26

Post by thriftwy »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #4

I don't want any of this in a car. I want analog/tactile nobs, zero connectivity, and at most a power cable and holder to plug in a smart phone. Anyone left that provides this?

1st gen Huyndai Cretas on anything but the highest trim levels are just that.

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#27

Post by chrisseaton »

geodel wrote: post #25
gumby wrote: post #15

I've been following this debacle in the German press and I think there's a structural problem that they will struggle to dig their way out of. And by "they" I don't mean just VW, but much of European industry. Software is simply not valued in Europe, and not because there aren't amazing developers there -- there are many. But software isn't considered important Let's start with cars. Back before cars were just comput…

People should try to reconcile the facts that those outrageously high FAANG salaries occurs because of 1) Near monopoly in that sector 2) Excessive surveillance and tracking users 3) Increasing inequality between haves and have nots. And non-FAANG type IT worker are also paid relatively high at the cost of other workers living perilous lives. So unless Europeans really start cherishing these "values". They are not go…

Five separate companies cannot be described as having a meaningful monopoly between them.

And there are hundreds of companies that pay at that level in the US, not just FAANG.

Reality is European workers are under-paid, not US workers over-paid.

Also curious what you think is different in Australia? Are software salaries there like in the US and above somewhere like London?

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#28

Post by alephxyz »

762236 wrote: post #16
mixmastamyk wrote: post #4

I don't want any of this in a car. I want analog/tactile nobs, zero connectivity, and at most a power cable and holder to plug in a smart phone. Anyone left that provides this?

I wish that car reviewers would do their job and be critical. They rarely mention how bad the modern cars are becoming.

The simultaneous trends of bigger SUV/trucks with higher hoods and poorly designed "infotainment" systems is terrifying, especially for pedestrians and cyclists.

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#29

Post by ceeplusplus »

geodel wrote: post #25
gumby wrote: post #15

I've been following this debacle in the German press and I think there's a structural problem that they will struggle to dig their way out of. And by "they" I don't mean just VW, but much of European industry. Software is simply not valued in Europe, and not because there aren't amazing developers there -- there are many. But software isn't considered important Let's start with cars. Back before cars were just comput…

People should try to reconcile the facts that those outrageously high FAANG salaries occurs because of 1) Near monopoly in that sector 2) Excessive surveillance and tracking users 3) Increasing inequality between haves and have nots. And non-FAANG type IT worker are also paid relatively high at the cost of other workers living perilous lives. So unless Europeans really start cherishing these "values". They are not go…

> And non-FAANG type IT worker are also paid relatively high at the cost of other workers living perilous lives.

Those workers live perilous lives because cities refuse to build enough housing, not because a few workers have it good.

> those outrageously high FAANG salaries occurs because of

4) Much more generous VC funding leading to more competition between firms for SWEs, as a result of a more risk seeking / risk tolerant culture with stronger work ethic

Also you're ignoring that even SWEs at companies like Walmart Labs make much more than SWEs in Europe.

Re: Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind Tesla

#30

Post by geodel »

762236 wrote: post #16
mixmastamyk wrote: post #4

I don't want any of this in a car. I want analog/tactile nobs, zero connectivity, and at most a power cable and holder to plug in a smart phone. Anyone left that provides this?

I wish that car reviewers would do their job and be critical. They rarely mention how bad the modern cars are becoming.

Well, reviewers busy fiddling with ten thousand settings in 14 INCH TOUCHSCREEN. While 2021 model has only 12.4 inch screen. So new one is best thing that happened.
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