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IMDB deleted all negative user reviews for The Rings of Power

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Re: IMDB deleted all negative user reviews for The Rings of Power

#671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Middle-Earth most definitely is not based on Europe and claiming such is unsupportable. The geography and map of Middle-Earth is absolutely nothing like Europe, no similarities whatsoever, and no geological process known could make it similar. On the other hand, Middle-Earth is strikingly similar to a mirror image of North America.

I didn't say based IN I said based ON. Those are similar sounding but completely different. The former implies it's actually based in the same country and lands as Europe. Whereas the later implies it's merely inspired by to some degree.

Tolkien borrowed quite heavily from Scandinavian mythology, especially the epic Väinämöinen from Finnish mythology, and seems to have been obsessed with Odin from Norse mythology. Is that what you mean? Because claiming he based his fictional myths and his fantasy fiction on European myths and history is so vague and technically inaccurate that is must be false. Though Italy is firmly in Europe, describing lasagna as European food is at best misleading and at worst false.

Not for nothing, Europe is a continent. Whether you believe Tolkien based his works on or in Europe, both are false on their face. It doesn't even make sense, so please try to better articulate what you mean. Because you literally have argued that Tolkien based the continent of Middle-Earth on the continent of Europe, then you have waffled and changed your argument from in to on. Either way is nonsense. What you must have meant was Tolkien based his stories, not the element of his story setting, Middle-Earth, but the stories themselves, on history and mythology of the various peoples of Europe.

But, in fact, other than Scandinavian epics and myths, and specifically Finnish and Norse epics and myths, that is false.

If you can support your claim, you'd be more convincing. An example of some very similar non-Scandinavian European story found in Tolkien's work would drive your point home. But I am unaware of any example of, say, Italian or Romanian or Polish or Swiss or Danish folk stories or myths being borrowed by Tolkien. And we need not be so vague. Europe was never a single culture, but always many. And Tolkien was not writing to give Europe a history and mythology; that purpose was only for England.

Re: IMDB deleted all negative user reviews for The Rings of Power

#672
post #178
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People were up in arms before a single episode aired, because they saw a fictional species (dwarf) had dark skin. many of those people have now pivoted their arguments against the show to being about pacing, writing (note: I’m in no way implying this is you, I haven’t seen any LotR series opinions on HN) - but the racist stuff has already occurred

I wonder how well it would go down if someone made a show about slavery in USA with all of the black people being played by non-blacks... For inclusivity you know? Get some Asians there. Maybe gender swap the historical big figures to boot and have them speak Chinese or something.

So here's the thing - in reality black slaves actually existed. So if you cast a white guy to play a black slave then yeah people would be a little bit confused. Dwarves are a fictional species which have never existed, and even if all dwarves have been described explicitly as being white in the books (and I don't think they have) there has been enough artistic license taken in the various recent films that straying from this is really not too outrageous.

I think you're kind of revealing a bit more about own feelings on race than you realise.

Re: IMDB deleted all negative user reviews for The Rings of Power

#673

To be maybe controversial... I'm still thinking about it, but I do wonder if diverse casting works in European fantasy stories. The problem I have is that it generally pulls me out of the experience/ makes it less immersive. I welcome diverse castings in modern shows (though we don't need every show to follow a template 'diverse' casting). A common counter argument is, well you can suspend your disbelief and imagine…

When you say European, except for the fact that Tolkien wrote the story, what part of the show thus far has given you an explicit European feel? Did the Harfoots resemble British subjects, or do the race of men have to be from the European continent because of their skin color? Which city did Lindon look like? If we're already in a fantasy setting, why is there such a focus on relating the setting of the fantasy to o…

Op here. So my arguement is looking more at fantasy TV/movies in general rather than a particular focus on lord of the rings per se. But it is part of a wider discussion on representation in the European fantasy genre. As you know, what I am arguing for is that, I think it would be good to continue to have some shows which are 'diverse' and other shows which follow a more tradional casting. Do both. My concern is that there is political/media pressure to push always for diverse castings in all European fantasy shows. And this could go against good storytelling.

If I'm watching a story about a Japanese Fantasy story - it will feel less immersive if you introduce a blonde character. Likewise with an Indian, or African story. Everyone would think this reasonable. What some people get upset about, is if we also say this about European fantasy stories. And I don't agree with this (the point that a tiny tiny fraction of people living in Europe may have been nonwhite in the 1400s and below I find mute quite frankly). I also find it... Not considerate to call someone racist for making this point. And quite frankly its a great example of where we are right now. Film and TV studios terrified in their casting decisions and feeling like they have to please the media etc. Nor am I convinced that global audiences want to see themselves in European fantasy stories. I don't want to see a blonde white guy (or black or Indian guy) in a Japanese Fantasy story etc. etc.

I do feel that including a multicultural diverse population in a European fantasy story does have a large risk of less immersion and I don't agree thats 'racist'. You can do it, but it's a different world and a different experience. What I'm arguing again, is fine do that. But not everything fantasy driven needs to be like that.

The lord of the rings trilogy was not diverse and quite frankly was astounding. Game of thrones was not diverse, and was astounding up to the final season.

The latter was savegly attacked by woke groups for not being diverse and I just so disagree with that view point.

Let's have diverse stories and let's have traditional too. There are lots of good fantasy stories by Western authors that do include diversity (fifth season, and Ursula la guin Wizard of the sea story etc.)

Re: IMDB deleted all negative user reviews for The Rings of Power

#674
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define „woke“

The parent is using the term pejoratively. In this context, I would describe it as calling someone a poseur of liberal/progressive issues, i.e., someone who cares more about the appearance of supporting progressive issues than actually supporting those underlying issues themselves. It means calling someone dishonest about their outward intent, basically. Personally, I'd prefer that people would just say what they mea…

While used pejoratively, there are a few characteristics you can glean:

- Over-representations or inappropriate representations of minorities

- Main lead is usually some minority (e.g., woman, black, trans, etc.)

- Said minority characters are usually high on the power scale and rarely encounter any challenges, often at the detriment to the story

- Said minority usually espouse some overly blunt progressive message.

It's a mix between progressive propaganda and a fan-fic.

Re: IMDB deleted all negative user reviews for The Rings of Power

#675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While a third of the IMDB ratings are 10, another third of the ratings are 2 or 1. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7631058/ratings/?ref_=tt_ov_rt I think the reviews are being flooded by two extreme opinions If you look at the ratings from the top 1000 raters, you get a more normal distribution. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7631058/ratings?demo=top_1000_v... But it's really hard to trust anything about these numbers now…

Reading the first page of user reviews on RT, one thing I found interesting is that the low and high reviews said similar things. The high reviews praise the set, setting, and production value. The low reviews also like the set, but claim they spent too much on production value, and nothing on writing.

I'm not a LoTR fan[1], but I would agree about the writing. Some of the dialogues are complete joke. The entire beginning with Galadriel, her brother and her bullies sounds as if it was written by a 6yo, wrt logic and poor attempts at gravitas. Also the choreography of Galadriel's fight with the troll and writing of the scenes immediately leading up to that moment don't make any sense. On top of that, the whole thing feels poorly paced and boring.

Note that in the above I haven't said anything about faithfulness to the lore, which I'm not particularly attached to. To me the show can't stand even on its own, much less as part of a larger whole.

When it comes to stylisation, with Elves, at one point I felt as if I was watching Vulcans from Star Trek rather than Elves from LoTR. They obliterated all their features except the ears, and most of them look ridiculous (what's with the haircuts?).

So: I'm not angry (since they didn't break anything I cared about). But I am completely unamused be the show. I won't continue watching it.

[1]: I didn't dislike LoTR, but neither is it something I care all that much for.

Re: IMDB deleted all negative user reviews for The Rings of Power

#676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main problem with diversity, is that most of the time it's a performance. And it's often done with bad actors, who will spend hours and hours on talk shows, describing how they are proud to be the first X to have played in this role. The result is thus disappointing. And it does not create anything of value. Because unsurprisingly, people are not paying to the the "first black elf". Nobody care. So it's just alie…

As an indian, I find this politically fascinating. As Noam Chomsky's Manufactured Consent pointed out, the US has always used its media to influence politics and culture both in its own country and outside. It appears the US now believes that it can "mainstream" the acceptance of certain vulnerable group by showing them more on TV and movies. (I do think this will work with the next generation in a decade or so). How…

Op here. I enjoyed your comment. This was the kind of discussion I was hoping to generate. There is a lot of nuance in this area, but is often filled with a lot of anger (from both sides) that makes discussion difficult.

Re: IMDB deleted all negative user reviews for The Rings of Power

#677

To be maybe controversial... I'm still thinking about it, but I do wonder if diverse casting works in European fantasy stories. The problem I have is that it generally pulls me out of the experience/ makes it less immersive. I welcome diverse castings in modern shows (though we don't need every show to follow a template 'diverse' casting). A common counter argument is, well you can suspend your disbelief and imagine…

You not knowing history is a you problem. Genuinely weird to see people proud of their ignorance. Black people have been in Europe for many centuries.

https://twitter.com/erik_kaars/status/1418911714175750147?s=...

Re: IMDB deleted all negative user reviews for The Rings of Power

#678

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a citation on this assertion? I'm pretty sure when he said anything about it being a fake-prehistory, he said it was global prehistory. He drew heavily from the European sources he knew, but I don't recall any implication that it was meant to be Britain or Europe only.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_in_Middle-earth

According to this Wikipedia article,

""" In his 2004 chapter "A Mythology for Anglo-Saxon England", Michael Drout states that Tolkien never used the actual phrase, though commentators have found it appropriate as a description of much of his approach in creating Middle-earth. """

So this is critical interpretation and not something he literally said he intended. His quotes (also in the article) suggest he was drawing from English and Norse mythology, of course, but not that the cosmology of Middle Earth is solely English.

Re: IMDB deleted all negative user reviews for The Rings of Power

#679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While a third of the IMDB ratings are 10, another third of the ratings are 2 or 1. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7631058/ratings/?ref_=tt_ov_rt I think the reviews are being flooded by two extreme opinions If you look at the ratings from the top 1000 raters, you get a more normal distribution. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7631058/ratings?demo=top_1000_v... But it's really hard to trust anything about these numbers now…

6.5 is just about where I would rate this show. It seems like a generic high-production-value fantasy show, not being particularly reliant on source material (and thus not really benefiting from being associated with Tolkien). The acting is pretty average so far, and the storylines are too early to judge, but seem to gravitate to generic 'Good vs Big Great Evil' narrative. The pacing is also fairly slow to accommodat…

The reaction is likely because Tolkien has many hard core fans that did not appreciate the changes made to the lore.

Re: IMDB deleted all negative user reviews for The Rings of Power

#680

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dwarves aren't real, historical people. Black slaves were. What the actual fuck are you talking about?

So you wouldn’t mind white Wakandans? One or two Vanilla Panthers? How about caucasian voodoo gods, or demons of Japanese myth? They’re fictional too. Of course that would be silly, and we both know why. Tolkien’s work is explicitly based on Norse myth and the peoples of Northern Europe, who were and are quite real. He wrote about these intentions and influences at length. There’s no need for writers to rely on Europ…

> So you wouldn’t mind white Wakandans? One or two Vanilla Panthers? How about caucasian voodoo gods, or demons of Japanese myth?

No, I wouldn't mind. To get hopping mad about this kind of thing you have to be thinking a bit more about race than ... normal people do

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