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A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

theguardian.com

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Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#101

Post by JumpCrisscross »

krisoft wrote: post #91
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they expressed their wish to not sell the goat before the auction On the day of. Most auctions don’t permit this. (Again, livestock auctions have a lot of law around them. Their orderly functioning underlies several states’ economies. Teaching this is sort of 4-H’a point.) > can a law enforcement agent become a judge to decide on this? They got a warrant [1] [1] https://dig.abclocal.go.com/kgo/PDF/2022-08-31-Compla…

> Teaching this is sort of 4-H’a Well this person certainly learned an important lesson about where meat comes from. > They got a warrant. By misrepresenting facts. And then the warrant didn't authorise them to hand the goat over to some other third party.

> misrepresenting facts

This is alleged. Broadly speaking, a complaint alleging a “sham warrant” admits it’s on thin ice.

> the warrant didn't authorise them to hand the goat over to some other third party

The complaint alleges this. It’s a question of civil procedure.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#102

Post by david38 »

vogt wrote: post #14
johnklos wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cops extrajudicially confiscating property isn't violating rights? Have someone try it on you and see whether you still think that. Cops in the US get off on forcing their will on others.

The parents were the ones who confiscated someone else’s property when the goat was sold. But yeah, I agree, they do, you’re barking up the wrong tree if you think you’re going to stick it to me with ACAB sentiment because I am no fan of the state or police. I am a fan of honoring contracts and sales.

So if I get your six year old daughter to sell me all her toys for 100 $1 bills, you would be ok with that?

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#103

Post by uxcolumbo »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #42
uxcolumbo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks - but this is about animal rights and our culture of eating meat, is it not? If those people who took away the goat had more compassion then this little girl would still have her goat friend. The little girl and the goat had a bond and it was broken because we just view these animals as objects / property and not as sentient beings that 'are too much like us' as Carl Sagan used to say.

> is about animal rights and our culture of eating meat, is it not? One can make it about anything. These parents aren’t advocating against goats being slaughtered. I doubt any of them will stop eating meat. They’re advocating for a specific property interest.

> Property interest

And that's the point. Should a sentient being be regarded as property?

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#104

Post by superchroma »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #95
superchroma wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. The amount of people leaping straight to law in this thread is alarming, and I believe that that reflex is a cultural sickness. Why do we as a people bother producing things like Hallmark movies if this is the awful reality of american life, devoid of sentimentality, kindness and patience? I hope people consume such media because they aspire for things to be better some day.

This is a story of stupid parents. They waited until the day of to bother doing anything. Then they absconded with the animal after it had been auctioned. They should absolutely be allowed to back out of the auction with reasonable notice. And I can empathise—if someone came for my pets I’d do what was necessary, the law be damned. But they proceeded idiotically and are now filing petty suits against the cops of all…

People are careless and stupid. I am extremely grateful for all the times people have gone out of their way to accommodate my failures and shortcomings. The world would be a much grimmer place if we all went through it without being flexible in any way. I think endorsing that style of operating is a cultural sickness; fighting to suppress some of the best qualities we have as a race.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#105

Post by JumpCrisscross »

david38 wrote: post #98
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No valid sale could have occurred after that first attempt Auctions have rules. I don’t know this one’s, the complaint [1] omits much of them, but every one I’ve participated in bars backing out on the day of the auction. If you change your mind, you bid for your item. [1] https://dig.abclocal.go.com/kgo/PDF/2022-08-31-Complaint.pdf

Irrelevant. She is a minor.

> Irrelevant. She is a minor.

The relevant California code (§ 6710) is superseded by federal livestock auction law [1]. Also, most contracts require the minor and a parent or guardian sign specifically to avoid this.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packers_and_Stockyards_Act

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#106

Post by JumpCrisscross »

superchroma wrote: post #104
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a story of stupid parents. They waited until the day of to bother doing anything. Then they absconded with the animal after it had been auctioned. They should absolutely be allowed to back out of the auction with reasonable notice. And I can empathise—if someone came for my pets I’d do what was necessary, the law be damned. But they proceeded idiotically and are now filing petty suits against the cops of all…

People are careless and stupid. I am extremely grateful for all the times people have gone out of their way to accommodate my failures and shortcomings. The world would be a much grimmer place if we all went through it without being flexible in any way. I think endorsing that style of operating is a cultural sickness; fighting to suppress some of the best qualities we have as a race.

> world would be a much grimmer place if we all went through it without being flexible in any way

I believe there should have been leeway. But remedy under the law? The parents are suing. They aren’t advocating for a bill providing for pets’ rights. They aren’t raising money for a shelter. They’re litigating on scarce technicalities in civil procedure in pursuit of a payout and possibly vengeance, the end result of which will be minor rulebook amendments and lawyers paid handsomely on all sides.

Accommodations are exceptions. We can hope they occur. But we can’t throw a tantrum when they don’t materialise.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#107

Post by JumpCrisscross »

uxcolumbo wrote: post #103
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is about animal rights and our culture of eating meat, is it not? One can make it about anything. These parents aren’t advocating against goats being slaughtered. I doubt any of them will stop eating meat. They’re advocating for a specific property interest.

> Property interest And that's the point. Should a sentient being be regarded as property?

> Should a sentient being be regarded as property?

If these parents were raising awareness for a pets’ right law, I’d be far more sympathetic. They aren’t. It’s also unclear what the ramifications would be if livestock someone else has bought can be poofed into a pet at the previous owner’s insistence.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#108

Post by xboxnolifes »

vogt wrote: post #60
Hizonner wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It sounds like they brought this goat to auction where it was sold and then tried to re-neg on the sale. Wrong. You did not read the article closely, or you would not have made that assumption. Frankly you had no reason to make such an assumption even without reading it. Complaint: https://dig.abclocal.go.com/kgo/PDF/2022-08-31-Complaint.pdf

Except I’m not wrong: “On June 24, 2022, accompanied by Plaintiff Jessica, Plaintiff E.L. exhibited Cedar at Shasta District Fair in the junior livestock auction.” Since we’re making assumptions about each other apparently, I’ll assume you’re from San Fransisco or Toronto or some other urban center where livestock auctions aren’t common. So allow me to inform you that the purpose of a livestock auction is to bid on l…

Yeah, it's kind of weird. Apparently they went through with the auction all the way past bidding, and then decided they didn't want to sell. The auction had no legally binding agreement that could prevent this, but they seemed to believe that they did. Fair enough, I certainly would think backing out of an auction after selling wouldn't be possible.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#109

Post by UncleEntity »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #46
krisoft wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If she bonded that closely to the animal they should have kept it on the property and not brought it to the 4H show. What are you talking about? They kept it on property and law enforcement agents turned up (without a warant, inserting themselves into a civil dispute) and stole their goat. This is the contentious point. What business did those law enforcement agents had to enter their private property and steal a g…

> What business did those law enforcement agents had to enter their private property and steal a goat from them? You can’t use property rights to defend the parents. The goat had been auctioned. Arguing for the family is arguing for a compassionate carve-out from regular property rights.

> Arguing for the family is arguing for a compassionate carve-out from regular property rights.

Not really, the sheriffs traveled outside their county and seized the goat without a warrant.

Where I come from this is called “cattle rustling” and is a hanging offense. Well, not really since I’m originally from California but it is definitely an illegal search and seizure.

Pretty sure they could’ve just told the sheriffs to fuck off and called the local law enforcement to straighten out that mess but most people won’t do that because they show up with tactical body armor and assault rifles.

—edit—

Contrary to TFA they did indeed have a warrant to seize Cedar…a dubious warrant maybe but a warrant they did have.

Re: A girl wanted to keep the goat she raised for a county fair. They killed it

#110

Post by [deleted] »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #83
krisoft wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The goat had been auctioned. And the family argued that they have backed out of the auction before it started. Thus they haven't sold the goat. Thus they own the goat. Are they right? I don't know. But it is far from as straight forward as you depict it to be.

There may be a claim against the Fair, though that depends on the auction rules. (I’d be stunned if they permit day-of withdrawal.) As for the cops, they got a warrant [1]. (It’s unclear if they had the right to return the property to the presumptive legal owner.) [1] https://dig.abclocal.go.com/kgo/PDF/2022-08-31-Complaint.pdf page 9

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