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From Prison to Programming

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Re: From Prison to Programming

#31

Post by erdos4d »

KBeyo wrote: post #25
lostboomerang wrote: post #15

Rick Wolter seems to be quite balanced. Read the last paragraph "Life’s Not Fair". Problem is that some people read his story and thinks. "Oh, so teaching felons programming is a great way to reduce recidivism". This kind of be-all-end-all solution always fails. Some years ago journalists in the US loved to tell coal miners that they should "learn to code" when the mines shut down due to Washington politics. How hard…

I work with people in prison, or as they are commonly referred to within some circles, justice involved individuals. The issue here is not skilling these people in trades, it’s really about working on mental health and the underlying reasons why they are in prison. Until those challenges are addressed, these people mostly will not succeed. Many have not experienced much of a « normal » family life or friendships that…

> Anyway, we might know how to reduce recidivism, but society sure doesn’t seem interested in taking the steps to invest what’s needed.

The current "justice" system is a huge jobs program all around, and it is predicated on a persistently large mass of criminals who scare the crap out of the public. If they go away, so do cops, lawyers, prison jobs, and all the ancillary positions which feed off them. Society needs to own up to this fact and figure out what to do with all those people, especially the ones who live in rural areas which are completely dependent on prisons. I really feel the economics are what keep mass incarceration going year after year, no matter how many stories get written about it, or how awful everyone agrees it is.

Re: From Prison to Programming

#32

Post by lostboomerang »

ejb999 wrote: post #23
paulpauper wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of be-all-end-all solution always fails. Some years ago journalists in the US loved to tell coal miners that they should "learn to code" when the mines shut down due to Washington politics. How hard could it be? Did this even happen? I cannot find any articles in which miners were told to learn to code. I think instead those miners were offered vocational training, which included coding. This was in 2017. m…

>>Did this even happen? I cannot find any articles in which miners were told to learn to code. Then I guess you really didn't look to hard: https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/education/47... snip: "During a rally yesterday, Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden spoke to a crowd in Derry, N.H., a town that many miners call home. He acknowledged the economic setbacks and job insecurity that coal mine…

Just to add a small sample of mainstream media (Wired, NYT, NPR) running similar articles:

https://twitter.com/ComfortablySmug/status/10900807581260759...

Re: From Prison to Programming

#33

Post by stackbutterflow »

ravenstine wrote: post #16
buf wrote: post #6

I've also been to prison. My story is homeless at 20, no friends or family, in debt about $20k and just got out of prison as a convicted felon. Now I've built 2.5 unicorns, one of which I helped start. Right now, I've started two side projects that are nearing the $1M ARR (combined). Programming is a great leveler in today's world. I cannot express how lucky I am to have found it early in my life. I have a great desi…

That is an amazing story! I'm glad you made it out and have found a kind of success many ex convicts don't find. I never went to prison, but similarly, I'm not sure the person I was before my software career would have faired well if programming wasn't an option. It's such a practical skill that not only can be learned for free but is lucrative and opens all sorts of doors for people to be entrepreneurs. I hate to be…

Being a good enough developer to build a career in this field doesn't require a high IQ but it does require a special kind of mindset as you said.

I also used to think that everyone could learn to code but I came to realize that this mindset can't be learned. Some people maybe discover that they have this mindset later in life and that's why learn to code is still a useful piece of advice because it'll reach them but once you've tapped into the fixed % of the population that do have this mindset you can't expand it more.

It's not to say others are doomed, there are other mindsets that exists for every professions. Maybe some of them can become great PMs or great small business owners or accountants. But coding is out of reach for a large portion of the population just like developers tend to be very poor salespeople and couldn't "learn to sale" if their income relied on it.

Re: From Prison to Programming

#34

Post by erdos4d »

soulofmischief wrote: post #5
jmclnx wrote: post #4

I know a few people who were in prison, some for serious crimes. Based upon my very unscientific sample, many of these guys were pretty smart. It makes me wonder how their environment in school (peers and/or teachers) along with social pressure put some of them on that path. I hear if smart people are not engaged in classes, they get bored rather quickly and start doing poorly. When I was young, I remember many times…

For me it had nothing to do with attention... if you let me read my books quietly in class while you're wasting my time with a lecture I can absorb in two minutes at home, we don't have a problem. I'll show up and pass your test. Most of my teachers understood this and got out of my way. The ones who didn't understand caused me no end of problems in their attempts to force me to conform to expectations I never signed…

> And I felt the concerted institutional effort every single step of the way to push me down and grind me into submission, to teach me I was a criminal for thinking for myself.

I so relate to this. The people who run schools honestly believe that they are the one true way in society and if you aren't square with them, you are literally on a criminal path. You don't believe their values? Complete anti-social. Don't find their facts fun to regurgitate on command? Clearly an idiot. These people really are brainwashed in this way and that kids get forced through that system is a tragedy.

Re: From Prison to Programming

#35

Post by nulbyte »

lostboomerang wrote: post #29
whydoyoucare wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding #2 - while I am all for reforming the US prison system, a direct comparison of US (prison) failure with Scandinavian (prison) success is unfair. It also risks creating misguided reforms, without properly understanding and addressing the social, economic, historical and geographical gaps between the two countries.

You and @KBeyo are absolutely right. It is two different countries and very different cultures. Just modeling US prisons on Scandinavian ones is not a solution. I could even imagine it making things worse in the short-term (a banal example would be "so the prisoners in Norwegian prisons have access to knives in the kitchen they roam freely, let's try that in San Quentin"...) But I think we could start looking at the…

I don't think there was a suggestion to model prisons in the U.S. after others in Scandanavia, only a comparison to point out that if others have found a solution to recidivism that works in their society, we should be able to find one that works in ours.

Re: From Prison to Programming

#36

Post by lostboomerang »

KBeyo wrote: post #25
lostboomerang wrote: post #15

Rick Wolter seems to be quite balanced. Read the last paragraph "Life’s Not Fair". Problem is that some people read his story and thinks. "Oh, so teaching felons programming is a great way to reduce recidivism". This kind of be-all-end-all solution always fails. Some years ago journalists in the US loved to tell coal miners that they should "learn to code" when the mines shut down due to Washington politics. How hard…

I work with people in prison, or as they are commonly referred to within some circles, justice involved individuals. The issue here is not skilling these people in trades, it’s really about working on mental health and the underlying reasons why they are in prison. Until those challenges are addressed, these people mostly will not succeed. Many have not experienced much of a « normal » family life or friendships that…

You are right.

I'm sorry my message came a bit across like "Just copy Scandinavia, then everything will be great". Obviously that isn't the case. My point was that there's no easy solution to reduce recidivism, but if we need to start somewhere it might be better to look into incentives created by the current prison system than learning inmates to code.

That doesn't solve the whole cultural view on inmates, the social and psychological problems that placed a lot of them in the prison in the first place, etc. etc. etc.

Re: From Prison to Programming

#37

Post by atemerev »

stackbutterflow wrote: post #33
ravenstine wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is an amazing story! I'm glad you made it out and have found a kind of success many ex convicts don't find. I never went to prison, but similarly, I'm not sure the person I was before my software career would have faired well if programming wasn't an option. It's such a practical skill that not only can be learned for free but is lucrative and opens all sorts of doors for people to be entrepreneurs. I hate to be…

Being a good enough developer to build a career in this field doesn't require a high IQ but it does require a special kind of mindset as you said. I also used to think that everyone could learn to code but I came to realize that this mindset can't be learned. Some people maybe discover that they have this mindset later in life and that's why learn to code is still a useful piece of advice because it'll reach them but…

I teach coding. The mindset absolutely can be learned, but indeed, you need to learn some attitude, not just skills. But a teacher can show how it is done; the exploration, the part when you do not give up when you encounter an error, etc.

In my experience, the most significant first barrier is the command line and the environment setup. This is why I always start with explaining the Unix shell and ssh. It gets a lot easier from there.

Re: From Prison to Programming

#39

Post by soulofmischief »

erdos4d wrote: post #34
soulofmischief wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it had nothing to do with attention... if you let me read my books quietly in class while you're wasting my time with a lecture I can absorb in two minutes at home, we don't have a problem. I'll show up and pass your test. Most of my teachers understood this and got out of my way. The ones who didn't understand caused me no end of problems in their attempts to force me to conform to expectations I never signed…

> And I felt the concerted institutional effort every single step of the way to push me down and grind me into submission, to teach me I was a criminal for thinking for myself. I so relate to this. The people who run schools honestly believe that they are the one true way in society and if you aren't square with them, you are literally on a criminal path. You don't believe their values? Complete anti-social. Don't fi…

It's a really bad filter, too. I used to get written up a lot (and punished/beaten at home) for drawing in class. If my characters had so much as a 1-inch knife on their heel, I was being hauled into the office for the latest round of Is-This-The-Next-Columbine, told I was drawing evil things. This happened incessantly throughout grade school.

My guardians and schools formed an ad-hoc surveillance network where they all made sure I was never drawing Bad Things, and that I was always Adequately Punished. The insanely ironic thing is that I was unequivocally the first person who would have put their life in danger to protect the lives of their peers. Because of my upbringing I have a compulsion to protect others at my expense and would never dream of aiming a firearm at someone who wasn't an immediate threat to my safety. But while white supremacists around me were sharpening their views on the playground, I was the easy target.

I obviously didn't pursue a career in art and still struggle with personal identity and creativity because of this.

Re: From Prison to Programming

#40

Post by satysin »

lostboomerang wrote: post #15

Rick Wolter seems to be quite balanced. Read the last paragraph "Life’s Not Fair". Problem is that some people read his story and thinks. "Oh, so teaching felons programming is a great way to reduce recidivism". This kind of be-all-end-all solution always fails. Some years ago journalists in the US loved to tell coal miners that they should "learn to code" when the mines shut down due to Washington politics. How hard…

God I fucking hate the response "learn to code!" to everything.

People seem to think everyone being a programmer is needed otherwise humanity will fall. Honestly it is one of the stupidest things I have heard.

Could more [good] programmers be a good thing? Sure, we can always do with more good programmers.

However the truth is we need more of many, many types of people. Teachers, personal care workers, doctors, nurses, etc.

Not everyone wants to be a programming. Not everyone can be a programmer.

Can I teach anyone to write Hello World or a simple number game in Python? Of course, same way I can teacher anyone to track their budget in a basic Excel file.

But I can't take anyone and teach them Excel to be a spreadsheet wizard for the finance department. Believe me I know this from first hand experience :)

What we need is an open, fair and free education system to encourage people of [almost] all ages to do what they are good at and enjoy. We put far too much positive spin on learning to code as if it is the answer to every god damn problem in the world.

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