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AI is getting better at generating porn

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Re: AI is getting better at generating porn

#101

Post by yellowapple »

hackerlight wrote: post #97
SXX wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can speculate all we want. The fact is: its impossible to apply any real restrictionsn ML model. Just like any DRM this one gonna be easy to bypass and will only degrade experience of legit users and gonna slow down technology advancement. We dont require image editors to have CSAM filters and requiring filter for ML model is madness.

You're talking about filters inside the ML model, but I think the more interesting question is morality and the law.

"The law" is kind of irrelevant unless it's enforced, so it really boils down to morality.

There are two separate questions to be answered here:

1. Is it immoral?

2. Is it sufficiently immoral to warrant imposing my own moral standard upon others, by force if necessary? i.e. is responding to or preventing it with violence itself moral?

Morality is subjective and relative, which is why it's interesting to ask both questions: given the subjectivity and relativity of morality, at what point does your own moral code take precedence over those of others?

Re: AI is getting better at generating porn

#102

Post by yellowapple »

hn_throwaway_69 wrote: post #26
fyvhbhn wrote: post #6

I wonder if this could help pedophile people since generated porn wouldn't imply abuse of children.

This is still child abuse material and probably still illegal where you live. The reason is obvious, it's a gateway to the abuse of real children.

> The reason is obvious, it's a gateway to the abuse of real children.

Please provide some evidence for this.

Re: AI is getting better at generating porn

#103

Post by yellowapple »

ceejayoz wrote: post #50
bambax wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I see a photo of ice cream, I tend to crave real ice cream Would you say this works for other things? Esp. violence? Should all depictions of violence be banned? Or any undesirable behavior? The list may be long. But more importantly, what you're describing is advertising. An image of an ice cream isn't an ice cream. Porn works differently. It doesn't advertise for real sex. Porn conflates the representation and…

> Would you say this works for other things? Esp. violence? If I find myself sexually aroused by violence. > But more importantly, what you're describing is advertising. Sure. We restrict or prohibit advertisements of certain things. Including child sexual abuse on that list is probably OK. > Porn works differently. It doesn't advertise for real sex. I'm not sure I agree. There are, for example, indications consumers…

> There are, for example, indications consumers of porn are more likely to request / engage in certain sex acts common in porn, like facials, anal sex, choking, etc. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32081698/

The full paper is behind a paywall, but the abstract at least doesn't appear to make any conclusion w.r.t. causality. It's just as likely (if not more so) that people who are more likely to request / engage in certain sex acts will tend to prefer porn featuring them.

Re: AI is getting better at generating porn

#104

Post by rasz »

bjourne wrote: post #54
dreampen wrote: post #34

Creator of pornpen.ai here, looks like this discussion is ramping up again! Wanted to respond to some of the points made here and in the article. The grotesque images: Simply put, the model is not good enough yet. This will improve over time as the models get better. Diversity/male gaze/heteronormative: Generating men and other genders did not yield very high quality results unfortunately, so I didn't include it in t…

Why are the default tags babe, busty, perfect boobs, skinny, and perfect body?

Three ass cheeks are indeed perfect, right there with three boobed bar hooker from Mars.

Re: AI is getting better at generating porn

#105

Post by [deleted] »

dannyw wrote: post #60
hn_throwaway_69 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no reason to make such material lawful unless the converse is proved by empirical evidence. That is, can it be proved that people who view AI-based material are less likely to act on a sexual interest in real children? Unless that's proven, there's no other reason to make such material lawful. You're welcome to provide one. The analogy is not apt. You cannot compare image-based abuse of children with a video…

We live in a society where things are allowed by default and banned if they cause harm, not a society where things are banned by default and allowed if they are proven to not cause harm.

[deleted]

Re: AI is getting better at generating porn

#106

Post by [deleted] »

ceejayoz wrote: post #55
lvass wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's how it works, these AI models _really_ should prevent taking queries with "child" in them. Imagine you have one of these AIs installed, all you need is to stroke six keyboard keys to face a 20+ years criminal charge (of the type your ass is not spared). A bad actor with a few seconds in front of your screen could take this hell upon you. Having something like this installed in a laptop is equivalent to leav…

> A bad actor with a few seconds in front of your screen could take this hell upon you. This has already been the case for quite some time. AI doesn't really add anything new to that part of the equation.

[deleted]

Re: AI is getting better at generating porn

#107

Post by naniwaduni »

SXX wrote: post #71
hn_throwaway_69 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no reason to make such material lawful unless the converse is proved by empirical evidence. That is, can it be proved that people who view AI-based material are less likely to act on a sexual interest in real children? Unless that's proven, there's no other reason to make such material lawful. You're welcome to provide one. The analogy is not apt. You cannot compare image-based abuse of children with a video…

I doubt anyone on HN would argue for making AI generated CSAM lawful. At the same time attempts to add unenforceable limitations into ML technology like ClosedAI trying to do is worse than useless. You can generate whatever you want on your own PC, but if you try to use it for fraud or to share illegal material then you are a criminal.

Legality of fictional child pornography is surprisingly contentious, with positions ranging from "protected as artwork under freedom expression", "illegal if provenance involves child abuse within jurisdiction", to "illegal but non-realistic depictions don't count", to "depiction of children are illegal, regardless of provenance", to "depictions of adults who could be mistaken for children is also illegal"—just among first-world countries. "AI-generated CSAM" ranges from obviously unlawful to an oxymoron depending on the standard applied!

Re: AI is getting better at generating porn

#108

Post by makeitdouble »

Waterluvian wrote: post #39
makeitdouble wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do the people making such comments think this won’t be applied eventually to all sexual preferences? I’d see two aspects of this: - it cements the status quo. This technology isn’t bound by the availability of actors, real life societal issues etc, so I understand the disappointment when it follows exactly all the same lines as the current industry. And a lot of people aren’t happy with the current industry, to say…

I guess capitalism (or really: resource optimization) is often incompatible with social equality? You’re going to optimize for a proven market. Indeed, it’s absolutely plausible that the existence of that market drowns out other possible markets from emerging. But how do you get an organization with limited resources to make the less optimal choice? I guess we need government AI porn.

On porn, I'd argue it's probably the other way round as well, creating a cycle. Traditional norms dictated where the money go, and people wanting to chase that money now repeat the process, even as norms have shifted and they could address a bigger market.

There is of course a case to make for places with religious laws, but it doesn't looks like the AI devs are thibking about that at this point.

Re: AI is getting better at generating porn

#109

Post by naniwaduni »

hackerlight wrote: post #41
hn_throwaway_69 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is still child abuse material and probably still illegal where you live. The reason is obvious, it's a gateway to the abuse of real children.

Let's discuss the morality first. There's a few reasons that consuming CSAM can be immoral: - encouraging further production by adding view count, ad revenue, social encouragement to creators. - compounding victimization by improving circulation. - apparent gateway effect, either in the individual consuming it or by allowing a culture of tolerance. It's the same logic for snuff films. AI created CSAM basically remove…

It's also the same logic as the moral panic against violence in video games, which seems like a poor look for the credibility of the "moral" argument.

Re: AI is getting better at generating porn

#110

Post by candiodari »

yellowapple wrote: post #101
hackerlight wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're talking about filters inside the ML model, but I think the more interesting question is morality and the law.

"The law" is kind of irrelevant unless it's enforced, so it really boils down to morality. There are two separate questions to be answered here: 1. Is it immoral? 2. Is it sufficiently immoral to warrant imposing my own moral standard upon others, by force if necessary? i.e. is responding to or preventing it with violence itself moral? Morality is subjective and relative, which is why it's interesting to ask both que…

If there is no technical means to enforce the law, there is no law. At least when it comes to the war on drugs ... at least there's some physical thing being traded along. These models would generate such imagery and then immediately destroy it.

This will be a bigger disaster than the war on drugs, because it's almost impossible to provide proof. So what's left is convicting people based on oral testimony alone ...

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