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Cannabis legalization decreases stock market value of major pharmaceutical firms

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Re: Cannabis legalization decreases stock market value of major pharmaceutical firms

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if you are miserable, opiates will make you feel content. Not euphoric, but merely content, normal. But if you already feel content, opiates will not make you feel much different. That’s sad if true. Opiate users are not chasing a high, they’re merely chasing a normal.

That's what research is starting to suggest for at least some opiate addicts. Opiates have a very strong anti-depressant effect, that also tends to make the depression worse after coming down. Well, really it's the activation of "opioid" receptors (becoming a bit of misnomer) that have a very strong anti-depressant effect, which is the same mechanism that the anti-depressant effects of ketamine derive from despite no…

Dissociatives seem to be in their own class when it comes to addiction, and I wouldn't compare them with your classic psychedelics that work at 5HT2A on that metric. A lot of people get addicted to dissociatives like DXM where you don't that kind of dependence and abuse with most 5HT2A agonists.

Many dissociatives also inhibit dopamine and norepinephrine transport, or induce their release, which can have rewarding and addictive results on their own.

Re: Cannabis legalization decreases stock market value of major pharmaceutical firms

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I’m suppose to ask someone who broke in my house “do you mean me harm”? There are only two other people who should come in my house unannounced and as soon as they come in the alarm will sound and they know how to turn it off. One of those people sleep next to me. If you’re breaking in, I’m assuming violence. The odds of burglary is 1/36 https://policyadvice.net/insurance/insights/burglary-statist...

Quoted post unavailable.

What exactly should I do when an armed invader come into my house while I’m there? Are the police going to get there in time? Is the person just going to say “my bad” and peacefully leave? Are we going to sit down and have a beer together?

Re: Cannabis legalization decreases stock market value of major pharmaceutical firms

#173
post #66
post #6

Yay. Recreational marijauna user here and opioids scare the crap out of me. Had to take 10 oxycodone after a surgery and if they can hand those out they can hand out marijauna capsules or whatever. It's really that simple.

They’re not completely useless, but I agree that we overprescribe them. I had a kidney stone with complications that required three procedures to take care of. The only thing that would touch that pain was opioids. It was a miserable experience and, thanks to the opioids, I essentially have a four-month hole in my memory. They made me nauseous, dizzy and cognitively useless. I had to titrate off of them because I had…

>The only thing that would touch that pain was opioids.

I had a similar experience, albeit (and thankfully so) much more short term. I had spine surgery (lumbar laminotomy[0]) to address spinal stenosis[1] that significantly weakened my right leg and was prescribed oxycodone after the surgery.

I had prepared for this by acquiring significant amounts of cannabis (concentrate, butter and flower) to address the pain, but for four or five days, cannabis was insufficient to address the pain.

After the first two days I reduced the dosage and frequency of taking the oxycodone as I was concerned about dependency.

I will say that the first two days (full doses at four hour intervals) made me understand why some folks end up dependent on opioids.

My takeaway was that short-term use for acute (vs. chronic) pain, opioids are very effective.

For lesser pain levels, cannabis is also useful, with the caveat that cannabis doesn't actually get rid of the pain, you just don't care.

Your experience (and mine as well as that of many others) make it quite clear that (at least in the US -- elsewhere too, but legal regimes are different elsewhere and I'm not necessarily familiar with those) cannabis should be removed from schedule I (and potentially moved to schedule IV or removed completely) of the Controlled Substances Act[2], which would allow more widespread research into pain management and other medical uses.

I hope you don't find yourself in that situation again.

[0] https://adrspine.com/treatments/lumbar-laminotomy

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinal_stenosis

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_Substances_Act

Re: Cannabis legalization decreases stock market value of major pharmaceutical firms

#174

Do people replace opioids with cannabis?

Yes. In fact, it seems that when legalization happens - opioid use/overdoses in neighboring states goes down too.[0]

[0] https://thehighestcritic.com/news/recreational-marijuana-leg...

Re: Cannabis legalization decreases stock market value of major pharmaceutical firms

#175
post #44

Here in Illinois they charge huge $ for a license to grow. And they suppress opiates. And promote weed. And the dispensaries are all owned by the usual billionaires. That includes our governor. Weed legalization is a cash-channeling strategy.

Capitalists will always hop on the bandwagon during the last mile, when the risk has been largely eliminated and the rewards are huge. This is their usual playbook; externalize costs and risk while reaping the rewards.

But what made weed legalization happen is decades of activism, not business interests.

Re: Cannabis legalization decreases stock market value of major pharmaceutical firms

#176
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one of the beautiful things about Cannabis legalization - it provides a non-addictive pain management solution where the pills will talk much less.

I fully agree with you on Cannabis, but I don't think that's an argument for restricting opioid pills. I think we can and should make Cannabis widely available, and should absolutely encourage people to give it a try first, but if it doesn't work for them I think they should have the option of trying the pills.

>fully agree with you on Cannabis, but I don't think that's an argument for restricting opioid pills. I think we can and should make Cannabis widely available, and should absolutely encourage people to give it a try first, but if it doesn't work for them I think they should have the option of trying the pills.

I'd go further and say that all "drugs" should be easily available and the tiny percentage of folks who develop dependency issues should be provided treatment and support.

Not only would this reduce suffering and provide a wider range of pain management strategies, it would also significantly reduce the societal costs of substance prohibitions in terms of reduced economic impact in the following (not a complete list) ways:

1. Interdiction/enforcement is hugely expensive, and providing treatment to those who require it would cost a fraction of that;

2. Criminalization of substance use stigmatizes those who are caught in that particular net and, at least in the US, limits their ability (because many folks won't hire you if you have a criminal conviction) to increase economic activity/output;

3. Because of (2), many communities as well as the economy as a whole are negatively impacted both economically and socially;

For some reason, when it comes to "substance" use issues, we tend to examine the possible alternatives to address them, then choose the least effective, most harmful one.

I hope that changes, but I doubt I'll live to see it.

Edit: Clarified that the impacts I mention are not all of the impacts that drug prohibition has on society.

Re: Cannabis legalization decreases stock market value of major pharmaceutical firms

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have kidney stones from time to time. NSAIDs + "deal with it" are an underappreciated pain approach - it's ok to be in pain. It's not OK to be in so much pain you're going to blind and writhing, but those are totally different things.

Unfortunately, there are a ton of incentives from insurance companies and Medicare for patients to be pain-free. Part of your hospital and surgeon's reimbursement is determined by their patient satisfaction score, and uncomfortable patients provide low scores so docs overprescribe and steer clear of uncomfortable topics like behavioral changes, etc; https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/Res...

Really, the problem is prescriptions that say ”take 2 pills every four hours” instead of ”take max 2 pills every four hours as needed for pain”

Re: Cannabis legalization decreases stock market value of major pharmaceutical firms

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what research is starting to suggest for at least some opiate addicts. Opiates have a very strong anti-depressant effect, that also tends to make the depression worse after coming down. Well, really it's the activation of "opioid" receptors (becoming a bit of misnomer) that have a very strong anti-depressant effect, which is the same mechanism that the anti-depressant effects of ketamine derive from despite no…

Dissociatives seem to be in their own class when it comes to addiction, and I wouldn't compare them with your classic psychedelics that work at 5HT2A on that metric. A lot of people get addicted to dissociatives like DXM where you don't that kind of dependence and abuse with most 5HT2A agonists. Many dissociatives also inhibit dopamine and norepinephrine transport, or induce their release, which can have rewarding an…

I agree, it wasn't a great comparison. I didn't want to get too into the weeds on specifics since I figured the average person would lump them all under "psychedelics" or "hallucinogens". I just wanted to point out that the activation of opioid systems may be a contributor in its more addictive nature, but it's certainly not the only factor in its addictive potential. Especially so since those dissociatives that activate dopamine or opioid systems tends to be more addictive than their more selective counterparts.

Re: Cannabis legalization decreases stock market value of major pharmaceutical firms

#179
post #66
post #6

Yay. Recreational marijauna user here and opioids scare the crap out of me. Had to take 10 oxycodone after a surgery and if they can hand those out they can hand out marijauna capsules or whatever. It's really that simple.

They’re not completely useless, but I agree that we overprescribe them. I had a kidney stone with complications that required three procedures to take care of. The only thing that would touch that pain was opioids. It was a miserable experience and, thanks to the opioids, I essentially have a four-month hole in my memory. They made me nauseous, dizzy and cognitively useless. I had to titrate off of them because I had…

I’m always curious about using ketamine for situations like this.

I’ve found that with medical marijuana you still feel the pain but you just don’t care because you’re stoned, granted I haven’t had pain such as yours.

With ketamine, at low doses you get a disassociated effect without much cognitive load but I haven’t taken it when I was in pain and unfortunately don’t have ready access to it anymore.

I’d taken Vicodin for 2 days after a surgery and quit it immediately because I couldn’t think clearly, nausea, etc and didn’t want anything to do with it.

Re: Cannabis legalization decreases stock market value of major pharmaceutical firms

#180
post #31

Thank goodness we had this whole covid thing to prop up these poor pharma companies, a subset of whose yearly profit of $35B dwarfs the revenue of entire sectors of our economy. (Cable news: less than $6B revenue.) https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/pfizer-biontech-and-...

>a subset of whose yearly profit of $35B dwarfs the revenue of entire sectors of our economy. (Cable news: less than $6B revenue.) Is that supposed to be a problem? You can argue that pharama companies are extracting too much profit for what they do, but they certainly deliver more value to society in my mind than cable news.

I'm more concerned with the practical effects of the number than with its moral weight. There is a whiff of corruption about USA's response to covid, among other health challenges. I refer not to covid's murky origin, although more investigation of that is probably warranted. I refer to the fact that although we spend more on healthcare than anyone else, our covid performance was the worst in the world, except for Peru, Brazil, and portions of Eastern Europe. There isn't only one reason for this, but "more spending for worse results" is a strong indicator of corruption.

Why has e.g. Nigeria had fourteen covid deaths per million population while we have had 3100? Differences in reporting probably explain some of that. Some would blame the stingy level of primary care that our government provides to the poor. Others, including expensive private physicians who care for the rich, have noticed how common ivermectin use is in Nigeria. It is possible that ivermectin is of no use against covid (which is a virus not a living protostome), but we don't know that.

Not only has research been throttled, but mere discussion of such research has been throttled on most popular corporate media. What was so terrible about ivermectin, that not only could we not discuss it, but the little discussion that did occur inspired extreme and fairly dishonest official reactions like the many weeks of "You're not a horse!" media campaigns we endured? It's simple. Ivermectin is a cheap, widely-available drug with decades of safe human use. If it had been found to treat covid, there would have been less justification for novel mRNA vaccines with exceptionally curtailed safety tests (the details of which were to be kept under wraps for 75 years). That justification would have seemed even thinner after it became clear that the disease-preventing performance these "vaccines" required a redefinition of the word. If we had an open society that welcomed honest discussion of various possible covid treatments, vaccination could have been concentrated on the elderly and obese, and these firms might have seen e.g. $20B profits rather than $35B.

Now forget about ivermectin (...vitamin D, etc.), and consider the similar treatment received by the Great Barrington Declaration and its signatories, who in retrospect were absolutely right in every respect. Did these experts' message ever show up on cable news? Hmm... why did I mention their yearly revenue? Deluded "unicorn" fans might sniff at $35B (the important number, revenue, is about twice that; more competitive industries see larger such multipliers than two), but it is large enough to totally swamp the self-interest of other industries, such as cable news, politics, and others who influence opinions and governance. Have you ever watched CNN in USA for twenty minutes (yeah, I know) and not seen multiple advertisements for pharmaceuticals? (A similar analysis obtains for the military-industrial complex.)

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