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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

reuters.com

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#951

Post by CRConrad »

_-david-_ wrote: post #439
zmgsabst wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to be working for China, as well.

The US did the opposite with China. Instead of trying to bankrupt China, the US opened up trade in hopes of creating a liberal democracy in China.

Yeah, and it seems to be working for China -- not on. The US opened up trade with China, and since then China has managed to have the West dismantle its industrial base. It's working great for China! (Except hopefully the rest of the world is finally waking up to what's going on).

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#952

Post by CRConrad »

vbezhenar wrote: post #676
wiseowise wrote: post #608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would he end up in hell?

Because he is a traitor to his people. I know not a single person so universally hated by his own people but Gorbachev. He caused collapse of great country, sold it for dollars and cola. The fact that he’s praised by western people further solidifies it.

No post body was provided.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#953

Post by lapcat »

CRConrad wrote: post #948
lapcat wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you study geopolitics and history Please don't make assumptions about what other people have or haven't studied. > They also have a long, long history of authoritarianism. You could say the same about the Axis powers in WW2.

> Please don't make assumptions about what other people have or haven't studied. They weren't. Please don't put words in others' mouths. And quit whining about the guidelines when you're violating them at least as much as anyone else.

> They weren't. Please don't put words in others' mouths.

They were. To make it even more obvious: "I think someone needs to read a little more history" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32665292

> And quit whining about the guidelines

No. And your comment is blatantly violating the guidelines.

> you're violating them at least as much as anyone else

Nothing nearly as bad as your comment. Also, even if you believe that someone else is violating the guidelines, that doesn't justify your own violations, unless you have complete disregard for them.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#955

Post by djvdq »

eloy wrote: post #20

RIP Gorbachev, one of the few genuinely good people in politics. After he retired from politics, he was featured in several advertisements: - In 1994 for Apple Computer: https://www.upi.com/Archives/1994/10/07/The-first-advertisem... - In 1998 for Pizza Hut: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorbachev_Pizza_Hut_commercial - In 2000 for the ÖBB, the Austrian railways: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLscz8kEg6c - In 2007…

Gorbachev good? You think sending tanks to Lithuania to kill people is what good person does? Or hiding everything about Chernobyl and not telling people what happened is also good person best move?

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#956

Post by olegious »

UberFly wrote: post #352

This entire thread instantly devolved into political football humping. The problems within the new post-USSR Russia couldn't have been fixed by the US or the West. The roots of what Russia would become were already deeply set as the USSR collapsed. The main actors there just changed names and continued business as usual.

That's where I think you're wrong. The West had a chance to to alter history in 1991, instead Russia was treated like a loser (much like Germany was at the end of WWI and we know how that turned out). To quote a review of a biography of Gorbachev by The Economist from a few years ago:

"Even when Mr Gorbachev accepted the fall of the Berlin Wall, the unification of Germany and ultimately its membership of NATO, Mr Bush would play to Mr Gorbachev’s weakness for wanting to be lionised, but felt no obligation to help Russia financially or accommodate him politically. “To hell with that! We prevailed. They didn’t. We can’t let the Soviets clutch victory from the jaws of defeat,” he said to Helmut Kohl, Germany’s chancellor. This triumphalism was misplaced and would later backfire on America.

Mr Taubman argues that those in power in the West lacked the vision and will to extend a Marshall-type plan to Mr Gorbachev’s Soviet Union (and later to Yeltsin’s Russia). Those who had it were no longer in power. In 1991 Mrs Thatcher appealed to Mr Bush: “We’ve got to help Mikhail…Just a few years back, Ron and I would have given the world to get what has already happened here.” If the West did not come to Mr Gorbachev’s aid, she argued, “history will not forgive us.”" [1]

[1] https://archive.ph/oufgU

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#957

Post by KingOfCoders »

dh2022 wrote: post #922
dontlaugh wrote: post #873

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The West's outwards aggression and effective embargo are gone, sure. That definitely helps. However, the material conditions aren't necessarily better. It used to be that everyone was guaranteed a home, a job, healthcare, education, etc. Homelessness is now a problem in most capitals, many struggle to find a job at all, healthcare has generally been defunded and privatised, etc. So many of us left because we clearly…

I would like to amplify KingOfCoders answers with the experience in Romania. I lived in 1980's Romania. The party provided a guaranteed job - but only if you worked where the party sent you. The party provided a guaranteed apartment - but only if you lived where the party sent you. The apartment did not have heat and did not have electricity. If you were lucky maybe it had a somewhat stable gas supply. Hopefully the…

The same in the GDR with flats. You couldn't get one, until you were married and best had a child. Without, single, you had to stay with your parents. You had to apply for a flat and it took up to several years until you got one - the one they gave you, no selection. If you had bad luck or your parents were not of sufficient socialist status, you had no central heating.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#958

Post by woodruffw »

flavius29663 wrote: post #308
woodruffw wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a disconnect here: the US policy in question took place over decades, not the 8 years that Reagan was president.

of course it was a decades long policy, but Reagan takes the laurels because his predecessor was appeasing USSR and Reagan did the exact opposite, bringing about the downfall of the USSR. If a new Carter would have been in power, I am not sure 1989 would have happen when it did.

This is somewhat ahistorical: Carter's initial policy towards the USSR was a continuation of the "detente" policy pursued by multiple administrations, beginning in the 1960s. But it quickly shifted towards a much more aggressive policy, following the USSR's engagement in Afghanistan. If anything, Reagan continued his predecessor's aggressive policies.

Reagan was instrumental in the USSR's final years and even more instrumental in the policies that built the oligopoly that followed it. But singling him out for laurels does not accurately reflect either the USSR's internal politics or the 50 years of US foreign policy that brought us to 1991.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#959

Post by selimthegrim »

hotpotamus wrote: post #381
inferiorhuman wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'm not in favor of abolishing the government. I just want to shrink it down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub." – Grover Norquist

It's really strange to me that there was a decade where every Republican had to pledge allegiance to this guy (which ended when he married a Muslim woman).

Doesn’t seem to have hurt Wolfowitz much (well, he didn’t marry but still).

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#960

Post by dghughes »

dghughes wrote: post #782
V__ wrote: post #765

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he became increasingly frustrated over the years that this was not done. This may be true, but I think it's more likely that he doesn't care about it at all. He is an opportunist, and back then the best opportunity was to criticize the U.S. and Europe by insisting on international law. Today, he is saying Europe is a fascist Nazi oppressor.

> He is an opportunist And a manipulator. He's the person who gossips in the background. He tells someone that guy over there just called you a name, and then says the same to the first guy. He's the type of person we all hate.

Putin I meant if that wasn't clear. Not Gorbachev.
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