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Launch HN: Payload (YC S22) – Headless CMS for Developers

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131–139 of 139 posts

Re: Launch HN: Payload (YC S22) – Headless CMS for Developers

#131
post #22

1. Outstanding marketing site. 2. My initial thought was, "this looks fantastic… just as good as Sanity, which is a problem because Sanity is already around so what's the point? Really my only gripe with Sanity is that there's no free open sou—" oh dang, there it is. Yeah, I will definitely give your product a shot on my next project.

Yeah! The other big difference with Sanity is that the API side of Sanity is 3rd-party. So you never truly have control over the API logic or backend side at all. Whereas with Payload, you control both the admin UI AND the entirety of your API. That's what I mean by "closing the gap" between an app framework and a headless CMS. Lots more backend potential with Payload.

Knut from Sanity.io here. First of all, congrats on the launch and what seems to be a well done product!

And to be a bit nit-picky and to clarify our world-view: The API side of Sanity isn't 3rd-party (it's native to the platform), but it is hosted and propertary.

There are always trade-offs, so no, you don't get the kind of control you get when you host your own Express-server or sit on your own MongoDB instance, but then again, you don't have to do those things to have a scalable real-time document store that supports deeply nested document structures with queryable references (with referential integrity). We build our APIs specifically to improve developer experience where we take care of the hard parts™ so that you can focus on the productive things. All of our HTTP APIs are versioned, because we specifically want to avoid breaking changes as much as possible.

Furthermore, there are other things that you just get. Like GROQ which is way more expressive and flexible for querying data compared to GraphQL (which we also offer). You get on-demand image transforms. You get both content and assets behind a CDN. You have a mutation/patch API that can do transactions with pretty specific operations (“change only this value in an nested array for this key if it matches this value”). Since the backand has full attributed revision history, you can also have controls that prevents race conditions, so that you can programatically update documents even if people are editing them. You can define triggers for webhooks and its payload with GROQ, so you can use serverless functions (or a server) to update content based on conditions. You can hit the export API endpoint and get all of your stuff over a stream wherever you want it. And so on and so forth.

Of course, there are always use cases where you want a solution that can be run fully on-prem or specific bespoke behavior in the database/API-layer beyond the capabilities in the platform. If you need those things, then you should probably look elsewhere than Sanity.io, and Payload might be an excellent choice.

Re: Launch HN: Payload (YC S22) – Headless CMS for Developers

#132

We have a Next.js website with a blog section that's powered by Sanity. Problem is, it's pretty finicky to install basic components that we like to use (which looks like Payload comes with out of the box) + communicating with Sanity via groq is clunky with Typescript (and possibly causing some SEO issues). How simple is it to install Payload in an existing Next.js app to power basically just the /blog/* subdirectory?

Hi! Knut from Sanity.io here.

Would love to learn more about:

* What you find finicky with installing basic components * What SEO issues that are connected to using GROQ/TypeScript

As far as I can gather from the docs, Payload doesn't come with more out-of-the-box components, and doesn't support custom blocks in the rich text editor, unless you commit to building the UI for it yourself?

Re: Launch HN: Payload (YC S22) – Headless CMS for Developers

#133
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personal opinion: Even as someone who used and loved PHP for a decade, Drupal is just awful. It's overengineered and bloated and the documentation is pretty sparse, not to mention it's hard to scale up. Its admin and editor UX is decades being modern headless CMSes. It is extremely powerful, but seemingly built to handle the most extreme edge cases rather than the most common use cases, and a lot of the power is just…

Wow. I was seriously considering Drupal as an option for an lod-style minimal-JS site (with mainly news+comments, gallery, wiki, statistics and stuff). Previous CMS I used was quite allright, but maintainers dropped it :( Can you suggest something besides Dripal and WP? (pls not JS)

What is lod? If you limit yourself to non JS, do you care what language the CMS is written in? Does it have to have all the features built in or just support plug-ins? Self hosted or vendor hosted in the cloud?

Re: Launch HN: Payload (YC S22) – Headless CMS for Developers

#134

Nice job getting to launch. However I'm really confused about the value prop. > There's no point competing in that noisy market, so we're undercutting it instead, by treating developers as first-class citizens. Who is the target market for this? who are the users and what is the job function in their company? The vast majority of CMS use is by Marketing departments building the public web presence of their company. M…

Hacker News is amazing because there are so many confidently wrong people.

Ever hear of contentful? https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/contentful

Or the entire category of headless CMS (A $600m/yr market growing at 20%+/year), for which eng is a primary stakeholder in the buying decision?

Re: Launch HN: Payload (YC S22) – Headless CMS for Developers

#135
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. I was seriously considering Drupal as an option for an lod-style minimal-JS site (with mainly news+comments, gallery, wiki, statistics and stuff). Previous CMS I used was quite allright, but maintainers dropped it :( Can you suggest something besides Dripal and WP? (pls not JS)

What is lod? If you limit yourself to non JS, do you care what language the CMS is written in? Does it have to have all the features built in or just support plug-ins? Self hosted or vendor hosted in the cloud?

Sorry, I was typing "old" :) And yes, I care about language to be able to support it and manage resources (PHP, CPP is fine). Self-hosted, bare metal. I used PostNuke-based CMS (LAMP) and was very satisfied with it. I was also thinking about basing site on nextcloud (I tried it for storage for friends, would be nice to integrate it with CMS), but it's a huge thing in itself I don't really know how to approach )

Re: Launch HN: Payload (YC S22) – Headless CMS for Developers

#136
post #102

Few things I really need in a CMS: * allow me to create a localized content (you seem to have this covered). * a good story for blobs (images, video, PDFs, etc). * integrated full text search (I do not want to set up elastic search when using a headless CMS saas). * fully spec'd API (when I have defined a content type, I need some API spec to be updated; openAPIv3 was good, GraphQL is better: so I can generate a clie…

This is a great list! I don't see anything in here that Payload doesn't handle. I'll try to address each. > allow me to create a localized content (you seem to have this covered). Localization can be done on any field(s), at any point in your content structure . > a good story for blobs (images, video, PDFs, etc). You can have as many upload collections and set mimetypes. Payload saves to a local directory in your No…

> We really put in the work, I'd love to hear from you if you try it out.

I see that. And I saw that you have probably tick most of the boxes in my list.

Excuse me for my late reply...

> Along with REST endpoints

Are they fully spec'ed (as in OpenAPIv3)? And may the spec change based on how you setup/evolve your site?

I'm really, really done with writing boilerplate, a full spec (OpenAPIv3 or GraphQL) allows me to generate a client lib, and these spec standards have very cool generator for them.

I went deeper into Payload, and the REST endpoints are unspecced (just docs for the endpoints, not formal spec for endpoints or their bodies).

> full text search

I mentioned it because it is a really hard problem. Keeping the search db and the main db in sync is hard, i18n when doing full text search is hard, allowing customization of the full text search engine is certainly also going to be hard. It would be great to have something that abstracts some of these away.

Re: Launch HN: Payload (YC S22) – Headless CMS for Developers

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great list! I don't see anything in here that Payload doesn't handle. I'll try to address each. > allow me to create a localized content (you seem to have this covered). Localization can be done on any field(s), at any point in your content structure . > a good story for blobs (images, video, PDFs, etc). You can have as many upload collections and set mimetypes. Payload saves to a local directory in your No…

Oh! I misunderstood your point about versioning. I was thinking versioning of content but you're talking about the API. That is a harder situation, I think my approach here would be to route requests to the api version on a separate new instance, `v1.example.com/api`, `v2.example.com/api` for example. Any way I can think of handling this scenario in the application layer gets messy right away, but maybe there is a go…

Having a schema generated, one could see if it changed between releases and increase a version number based on that.

Re: Launch HN: Payload (YC S22) – Headless CMS for Developers

#138
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is lod? If you limit yourself to non JS, do you care what language the CMS is written in? Does it have to have all the features built in or just support plug-ins? Self hosted or vendor hosted in the cloud?

Sorry, I was typing "old" :) And yes, I care about language to be able to support it and manage resources (PHP, CPP is fine). Self-hosted, bare metal. I used PostNuke-based CMS (LAMP) and was very satisfied with it. I was also thinking about basing site on nextcloud (I tried it for storage for friends, would be nice to integrate it with CMS), but it's a huge thing in itself I don't really know how to approach )

Oh wow, when you said old, you really meant it lol. Haven't heard of the Nukes in decades now.

Honestly, I hate to say this, but if you really want that level of server-side all in one power... maybe Drupal IS worth considering after all. Most modern sites aren't built that way anymore, instead opting to compose a site out of many services (eg a CMS for marketing pages, Discourse for a forum, an auth provider linking them all together, etc.)

A monolithic community on a single engine is in fact the kind of (rare) use case that Drupal actually fits... making its complexity possibly worthwhile. It's just overkill for most sites that aren't like that.

WordPress might also be able to get there eventually, with a lot of plug-ins, but at that point it would be so bloated that Drupal might actually be cleaner. Might also be worth checking to see if any of the older PHP CMSes (Joomla, etc.) are still being maintained.

Sorry, I haven't looked at this sort of use in years and wouldn't be able to provide more details than that :/

Re: Launch HN: Payload (YC S22) – Headless CMS for Developers

#139
post #42

In my previous job we struggled to get a CMS for our app: it was a medical app with articles embedded in it, and we wanted a way to have doctors and translators work independently in a CMS environment, with the final product being released in the normal way. We never found anything that would have done the CI automation we wanted, or not without significant customisation. Do you support CI workflows at all?

Just about anything CI-wise you can think of is completely doable with Payload. That's the beauty of being staunchly code-first. I would love to hear more about this at some point too, btw.

Sure :-) I've moved on to another company, so I will need to have a think and remember what the difficulties were.
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