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Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach

blog.cloudflare.com

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Re: Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach

#981

Post by fppoak »

marginalia_nu wrote: post #16
hammyhavoc wrote: post #3

If this is in response to Kiwi Farms, I would say this is very disappointing. Love CloudFlare, think they are amazingly innovative, huge amount of respect for the people who work there. I see where they're coming from, but I don't see how KF is defensible whilst 8chan et al aren't.

It's a really tricky situation. On the one hand, websites like KF and the like are utterly reprehensible. On the other hand, Cloudflare taking it upon themselves to police the Internet is a nightmare in its own, given their bot-prevention services are effectively mandatory in order to even keep any sort of larger interactive website running. What is permitted to say is something for the courts, not for the whims of p…

No post body was provided.

Re: Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach

#982

Post by complimentary »

_vvaw wrote: post #751
a_shovel wrote: post #737

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> archive.ph links don't work for me for some reason, so I can't see if there's any evidence in there. Alright, so you're ignoring the bulk of the evidence. Site works on my machine. >I have seen some screenshots claiming to show underage people talking sexually in the Catboy Ranch server, and it's been confirmed that those screenshots are not actually from the server. Says who? By the way, Keffal's hard drive was co…

Thanks for being a voice of reason on this issue. I'm also not a Kiwifarms user, but I've been following this via feminist Twitter accounts and the thread on that forum.

Though, I can't say I'm particularly astounded that he's getting away with this and grifting the heck out of his supporters. Seems commonplace for people to excuse this sort of behavior these days. Safeguarding has been all but obliterated in the past few years.

Re: Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach

#983

Post by phpisthebest »

killyourcar wrote: post #970
MockObject wrote: post #943

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who fears and despises Kiwi Farms, I would be dishonest if I didn't recognize the slippery slope certainty that the bar of acceptability would decrease over the next few years.

You realize the fallacy here, right? Terminating commercial agreements with three origins of stochastic terrorism is not some ratchet towards new speak. It's just three cases where Cloudflare decided that sheltering terrorism wasn't in their best interest.

>stochastic terrorism

stochastic terrorism is new speak itself, if redefining inaction to be action, is it redefining silence to be violence, it transitioning from a society focuses on first party liability (i.e am i only responsible for my own actions not the actions of others) to a collectivist mentality of not only am I responsible for my own actions but for the actions of everyone connected to me

Re: Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach

#984

Post by phpisthebest »

killyourcar wrote: post #971
phpisthebest wrote: post #950

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation. On the swatting I hope we are not believing MTG now.. that would be doubley ironic Also there is a big difference between actions of people that also happen to be members of a website and activity taking place on the website. I abhor third party liability In the case os 8chan and daily stormer they were banned for actions and content on the site. Not for actions of people that may be affiliated with the sit…

The London police arrested a trans activist and later apologized after she was targeted by kiwi farms. https://london.ctvnews.ca/doxed-transgender-activist-twitch-... There's one citation. Byuu/Near, the author of the incredible bsnes project, was harassed to suicide by kiwi farms. https://kotaku.com/the-brilliant-snes-emulator-creator-known... The site posted the video and manifesto of the Christchurch shooting. htt…

>>The site posted the video and manifesto of the Christchurch shooting.

Ok, and? I 100% disagree with the active censorship around current events we see every day, from police shootings to terrorism people should be forced to confront the raw reality of the world not a candy coated version put through the filters of main stream media.

>So there, three different citations that,

No those are claims that do not really have a fact based narrative behind them, further even if the claims are taken at face value you are blaming the site for actions of people off the site that may be members, 3d party liability.

Going back to the 8Chan, and Daily Stormer they were banned for illegal content ON THE SITE, not because members of the site did things off that site.

Posting mean or even offensive things on a website should never be a bannable event, and to the extent people are taking actions offsite, or offline to the point of direct harassment, swatting etc those INDIVIDUALS should be criminally prosecuted for their own actions

Re: Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach

#985

Post by elefantastisch »

groby_b wrote: post #961
elefantastisch wrote: post #847

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that Cloudflare thinks due process, not DDoS, is the right way to bring down horrible websites. Thus they protect them until such due process happens.

That's not the point you originally made. Moving the goalpost.

It is, but I will accept this as a valid critique that I probably didn't make my original point as well as I could have.

Re: Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach

#986

Post by catapart »

hammyhavoc wrote: post #3

If this is in response to Kiwi Farms, I would say this is very disappointing. Love CloudFlare, think they are amazingly innovative, huge amount of respect for the people who work there. I see where they're coming from, but I don't see how KF is defensible whilst 8chan et al aren't.

That's what is so sad about this. Cloudflare is NOT a utility, and they don't lobby to be one. If they were, then their arguments would have some merit. Instead, they're saying "look, we're a utility! We have to act like one! But we're going to keep the benefits of being a private company; we're just not going to exercise our private discretion because then we couldn't pretend we were a utility when it suits us."

As a dev who was once entirely on board with CF and recommended their "workers" environments to anyone that would listen, I'm very sorry to have to terminate both my business with them and my evangelizing of their services. But I'm certainly not going to stay in business with or recommend a company that would rather hide from their responsibility than to take the political heat for sensible business decisions (like removing poisonous clients).

Re: Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach

#987

Post by hammyhavoc »

catapart wrote: post #986
hammyhavoc wrote: post #3

If this is in response to Kiwi Farms, I would say this is very disappointing. Love CloudFlare, think they are amazingly innovative, huge amount of respect for the people who work there. I see where they're coming from, but I don't see how KF is defensible whilst 8chan et al aren't.

That's what is so sad about this. Cloudflare is NOT a utility, and they don't lobby to be one. If they were, then their arguments would have some merit. Instead, they're saying "look, we're a utility! We have to act like one! But we're going to keep the benefits of being a private company; we're just not going to exercise our private discretion because then we couldn't pretend we were a utility when it suits us." As…

I need more of this energy in my life. Great take.

Re: Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach

#988

Post by killyourcar »

phpisthebest wrote: post #983
killyourcar wrote: post #970

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You realize the fallacy here, right? Terminating commercial agreements with three origins of stochastic terrorism is not some ratchet towards new speak. It's just three cases where Cloudflare decided that sheltering terrorism wasn't in their best interest.

>stochastic terrorism stochastic terrorism is new speak itself, if redefining inaction to be action, is it redefining silence to be violence, it transitioning from a society focuses on first party liability (i.e am i only responsible for my own actions not the actions of others) to a collectivist mentality of not only am I responsible for my own actions but for the actions of everyone connected to me

It's not new speak. It's a more accurate set of words to describe what we used to call "lone wolves". Stochastic means random, statistically measurable but not predictable.

The term "stochastic terrorism" means terror attacks like school shootings, swattings, and driving trucks into protestors that happen with a certain statistical likelihood, but whose individual events cannot be predicted.

Re: Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach

#989

Post by killyourcar »

phpisthebest wrote: post #984
killyourcar wrote: post #971

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The London police arrested a trans activist and later apologized after she was targeted by kiwi farms. https://london.ctvnews.ca/doxed-transgender-activist-twitch-... There's one citation. Byuu/Near, the author of the incredible bsnes project, was harassed to suicide by kiwi farms. https://kotaku.com/the-brilliant-snes-emulator-creator-known... The site posted the video and manifesto of the Christchurch shooting. htt…

>>The site posted the video and manifesto of the Christchurch shooting. Ok, and? I 100% disagree with the active censorship around current events we see every day, from police shootings to terrorism people should be forced to confront the raw reality of the world not a candy coated version put through the filters of main stream media. >So there, three different citations that, No those are claims that do not really h…

Posting video of the Christchurch massacre is illegal.

And if you don't think the London police department didn't put out a fact based narrative about three swatting, you are straight up unwilling to engage in any sort of reasoned discussion, and are appealing purely to your emotional attachments to your ideals.

Re: Cloudflare's abuse policies and approach

#990

Post by kodah »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #947
kodah wrote: post #892

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no DDoS that's minimally violent. You are right though, not all DDoS attacks are politically motivated.

Whatever, can we say it's a 3/10 or less on the violence scale instead of having an argument about what "minimal" means?

For certain things I will measure/compare harmfulness relative to potential outcomes because sometimes doing enforcement is suboptimal. In this case, however, we're talking about someone co-opting the governments monopoly on violence, which is more of an issue of principle. Once you let people co-opt that, it's a fairly run-away train. That's a long way of saying, for me this situation is very binary. There's no degrees of vigilantism.
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