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Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

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Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#11

Post by codyb »

huijzer wrote: post #6

I still don’t get why countries such as the Netherlands and Germany started to subsidise fossil fuels by reducing the taxes on them. They claimed this was to help poor people. However, rich people benefit more since they typically have a car and a bigger one.

Every good a poor person buys is shipped by fuel though?

Edit: And the rich are more likely to be able to afford electric vehicles and appliances

_and_ they of course are more likely to be able to take a hit to their finances and an upsurge in costs.

The difference between going to the movies less and having to weigh getting all the food you need or all the toiletries you need is obviously quite large.

Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#12

Post by gwbas1c »

zppln wrote: post #3

Things are looking pretty brutal in southern Sweden for the coming winter. I have some acquaintances who are on thermal and who usually get pretty steep bills in December and January and they ain't just looking at a 7% increase that's for sure...

What's "on thermal?"

Geothermal?

Why would that go up (significantly)? Seems like geothermal would be pretty resistant? IE, the cost to run things like pumps should still be a fraction of the cost to heat using gas.

Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#13

Post by zasdffaa »

michaelbrooks wrote: post #7
zppln wrote: post #3

Things are looking pretty brutal in southern Sweden for the coming winter. I have some acquaintances who are on thermal and who usually get pretty steep bills in December and January and they ain't just looking at a 7% increase that's for sure...

In the UK, we had a 57% increase in energy bills from July, and we're now looking at another 80% increase from October which is terrifying for a lot of us.

In the UK we have standing charges on meters. These are fixed charges regardless of how much energy you use. You pay extra on top for your energy.

I use very, very little gas. Currently my standing charge is about 4 times the cost of the (tiny amount of) gas I use, at least.

To avoid the gas standing charge I'd have to remove the meter, physically. Not my property, can't do it. So I have to pay. Funny system.

Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#14

Post by hackerlight »

huijzer wrote: post #6

I still don’t get why countries such as the Netherlands and Germany started to subsidise fossil fuels by reducing the taxes on them. They claimed this was to help poor people. However, rich people benefit more since they typically have a car and a bigger one.

Because of democracy. There's little car-driving voters hate more than higher fuel prices. And unfortunately car-driving voters are a majority of voters, so everyone else is forced by the government to subsidize them.

Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#15

Post by onlyrealcuzzo »

MerelyMortal wrote: post #10
NDizzle wrote: post #2

It's easy to pivot to "the aftermath of war", but plenty, PLENTY of people and organizations pointed out that reliance on imported energy, especially from Russia, was not a great idea.

We've learned that war can disrupt the flow of energy. For renewable energies in the U.S., would the U.S. be considered reliant on places like China for the batteries, wind turbines, solar panels, etc?

Not much renewable energy gets stored in batteries.

We'd only be dependent on expanding energy if the manufacturing of key components was happening outside the US.

Expanding your energy supply is nowhere near as important as maintaining 50% of your total energy supply (EU fossil fuels).

US energy consumption has been close to flat for 20 years.

Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#16

Post by flohofwoe »

huijzer wrote: post #6

I still don’t get why countries such as the Netherlands and Germany started to subsidise fossil fuels by reducing the taxes on them. They claimed this was to help poor people. However, rich people benefit more since they typically have a car and a bigger one.

Not owning a car is a luxury in many areas outside cities that only the rich can afford though.

Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#17

Post by InCityDreams »

michaelbrooks wrote: post #7
zppln wrote: post #3

Things are looking pretty brutal in southern Sweden for the coming winter. I have some acquaintances who are on thermal and who usually get pretty steep bills in December and January and they ain't just looking at a 7% increase that's for sure...

In the UK, we had a 57% increase in energy bills from July, and we're now looking at another 80% increase from October which is terrifying for a lot of us.

Indoor bicycles are about £100 from decathlon. /serious.

I can see a lot of financial problems ahead but equally(?) a lot of people not just sitting on their arses doing sfa. Shopping centres will benefit from extra traffic, but may not necessarily get the cash. People may just wander...

I'm working on my W22 strategies now. More home (low key 90/10) exercise, more outside walks, family get togethers (share a house), stodgy energy-food, more blankets, bed early.....

Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#18

Post by izacus »

Teever wrote: post #8
archi42 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was in no position to make any decisions related to energy politics (except voting), and energy politics isn't my strong suit either, but I always thought that the "mutual dependency" sounded like a good argument against a war; much better than MAD or other militaristic options. But, unlike policy makers, I didn't grasp the extend of the dependency on gas in our country. Though not preparing a backup plan after the…

People have been making these kinds of excuses about trading autonomy for short-term profits for at least a century.[0] At the end of the day all that matters is that a nation is self-sufficient in the essentials and participates in the global economy that augment that self-sufficiency without damaging it. Anything else is hubris because you're just doomed to repeat history, and it's outright greed because the people…

Except that for most European countries, full self-sufficiency is simply not possible, especially without sacrificing many other aspects of prosperity (not to mention climate issues).

So talking about this is interesting "huehuehuhue" farting, but not a very realistic political strategy.

Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#19

Post by Kon-Peki »

MerelyMortal wrote: post #10
NDizzle wrote: post #2

It's easy to pivot to "the aftermath of war", but plenty, PLENTY of people and organizations pointed out that reliance on imported energy, especially from Russia, was not a great idea.

We've learned that war can disrupt the flow of energy. For renewable energies in the U.S., would the U.S. be considered reliant on places like China for the batteries, wind turbines, solar panels, etc?

I don't know how reliant the US is, but consider that if you buy a solar panel or a wind turbine from China, it produces energy for 10-25 years before needing replacement.

Gas, coal, wood pellets, etc. You buy them, you burn them, they're gone. You need new supplies tomorrow.

Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#20

Post by VoodooJuJu »

Shoulda woulda coulda aside, what does this mean going forward? For people who can't afford fuel - what will happen? Will they just not heat their home? Stock up on some proper animal hair clothing and blankets? What about their plumbing, frozen pipes?
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