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The case for language agnostic hiring

alphalist.com

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Re: The case for language agnostic hiring

#71

Post by pdpi »

nonasktell wrote: post #19
schroeding wrote: post #8

Elixir, Haskell et al. require concepts that are not required at all in e.g. Java. The functional programming module at my university had the highest failure rate after the math and statistics classes. Even something like C can require new concepts. I was a tutor for a university C programming course and students that had no problems with Java struggled hard with direct memory manipulation, pointer arithmetic etc., b…

If you only know java are you even a real (professional) dev? I'd expect any dev wanting a job using a language he doesn't know to have some understanding all of the concepts you're talking about. It's not language specific, it's just the basics of programming.

That sort of argument is just silly. Do you have a job you get paid for, where the primary output expected from you is code? Congrats, you're a professional dev.

Re: The case for language agnostic hiring

#72

Post by pdpi »

wiseowise wrote: post #58
TacticalCoder wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you only know java are you even a real (professional) dev? I'm a polyglot but Java is the language I used the most and I can guarantee you there are many professional dev I met and worked with that only know Java and make their comfy living writing only Java. Java is powering the real world since more than two decades now and the JVM is some rock solid tech with extensive tooling, so they can get away with only…

Nobody said frauds can’t live comfortably.

Why on earth would somebody earning their pay by providing value and doing the job they were hired for be a fraud?

Not all programming jobs require a PhD in computer science. There's plenty of people out there writing line-of-business software, and that's the stuff that makes the world work.

Re: The case for language agnostic hiring

#73

Post by anonymoushn »

julik wrote: post #35

>You might be looking for a specialist but you don’t want to attract people who are only interested in particular languages. Because that person’s narrow focus will hinder their growth. Exactly what I have been witness to was this taken to the test. Result: * You hire devs who do not like (or worse: hate) working in the language of the shop. They scold at the application they have to maintain and run, they do not con…

> be prepared to work, explore and develop in that tech

This seems like a much weaker requirement than the sort of requirement the fine article argues against

Re: The case for language agnostic hiring

#74

Post by thesuperbigfrog »

Master Foo and the Recruiter

A technical recruiter, having discovered that that the ways of Unix hackers were strange to him, sought an audience with Master Foo to learn more about the Way. Master Foo met the recruiter in the HR offices of a large firm.

The recruiter said, “I have observed that Unix hackers scowl or become annoyed when I ask them how many years of experience they have in a new programming language. Why is this so?”

Master Foo stood, and began to pace across the office floor. The recruiter was puzzled, and asked “What are you doing?”

“I am learning to walk,” replied Master Foo.

“I saw you walk through that door” the recruiter exclaimed, “and you are not stumbling over your own feet. Obviously you already know how to walk.”

“Yes, but this floor is new to me.” replied Master Foo.

Upon hearing this, the recruiter was enlightened.

Source: http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/unix-koans/recruiter.html

Re: The case for language agnostic hiring

#75

Post by cardanome »

julik wrote: post #35

>You might be looking for a specialist but you don’t want to attract people who are only interested in particular languages. Because that person’s narrow focus will hinder their growth. Exactly what I have been witness to was this taken to the test. Result: * You hire devs who do not like (or worse: hate) working in the language of the shop. They scold at the application they have to maintain and run, they do not con…

That is exactly the point the article is making though: Do not hire devs that are only happy working in a specific language.

I would add that it cuts both ways: Having developers that are too married to the current tech stack can also cause problems. Sometimes things do need to be rewritten. Sometimes adopting a new tech into the stack can be the right choice and offer competitive advantages. Devs with different backgrounds bring fresh ideas and can help you get out of an local optimum and towards a better global optimum for your goals.

So it is all about balance.

Re: The case for language agnostic hiring

#76

Post by cardanome »

q-big wrote: post #67
celdon25 wrote: post #5

All other things being equal, I’d rather hire someone who knows four languages that we don’t use, over someone who knows only one language that happens to be the one we use. Selecting for adaptability and breadth is a better predictor of success IMO. Among other benefits.

> I’d rather hire someone who knows four languages that we don’t use, over someone who knows only one language that happens to be the one we use. The more programming languages one knows well, the more opinionated one typically becomes because one has seen a lot of different approaches to programming. The strong opinions that the respective programmer has are not necessarily identical to the company's desired approac…

Yeah, but at a certain point of that journey people start getting less opinionated and more pragmatic again. At least that is how it worked for me.

Though yeah I only list languages that are relevant to the specific job when I apply. Sometimes one exotic conversation starter though that hasn't yet worked out.

Kind of ironic that I have too hide some of my programming knowledge because a broad understanding of many languages could allow me to add some really great value to the right company. Hiring prefers narrow-minded specialist though so I will play that part.

Re: The case for language agnostic hiring

#77

Post by nnoitra »

schroeding wrote: post #8

Elixir, Haskell et al. require concepts that are not required at all in e.g. Java. The functional programming module at my university had the highest failure rate after the math and statistics classes. Even something like C can require new concepts. I was a tutor for a university C programming course and students that had no problems with Java struggled hard with direct memory manipulation, pointer arithmetic etc., b…

Any decent CS degree properly exposes students to functional, low-level programming and functional programming.

Even if they didn't, a strong programmer will pick up them up in an afternoon. Ditect memory manipulation is just not that hard.

Re: The case for language agnostic hiring

#78

Post by pyb »

Hiring for "$LANG engineers" happens not because it makes sense, but only because it gives non-technical recruiters something to filter for. This is one of the reasons why recruiters should not be filtering candidates.

Re: The case for language agnostic hiring

#79

Post by lelanthran »

nonasktell wrote: post #19
schroeding wrote: post #8

Elixir, Haskell et al. require concepts that are not required at all in e.g. Java. The functional programming module at my university had the highest failure rate after the math and statistics classes. Even something like C can require new concepts. I was a tutor for a university C programming course and students that had no problems with Java struggled hard with direct memory manipulation, pointer arithmetic etc., b…

If you only know java are you even a real (professional) dev? I'd expect any dev wanting a job using a language he doesn't know to have some understanding all of the concepts you're talking about. It's not language specific, it's just the basics of programming.

> If you only know java are you even a real (professional) dev?

"Professional" means "paid to do it", so, yeah, there's plenty of professional Java developers.

Re: The case for language agnostic hiring

#80

Post by lelanthran »

wiseowise wrote: post #53
schroeding wrote: post #8

Elixir, Haskell et al. require concepts that are not required at all in e.g. Java. The functional programming module at my university had the highest failure rate after the math and statistics classes. Even something like C can require new concepts. I was a tutor for a university C programming course and students that had no problems with Java struggled hard with direct memory manipulation, pointer arithmetic etc., b…

> You can't expect Devs to self-teach each other those concepts on the side, that (advanced, third-year) CS students struggle with hard. You imply that Devs are lower on a hierarchy level than third-year CS students.

> You imply that Devs are lower on a hierarchy level than third-year CS students.

I think he implies that devs have less time to devote to new languages.

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