The dictatorship of the articulate • Hacker News Board

Re: The dictatorship of the articulate

#191

Post by badpun » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 10:29 AM UTC

rich_sasha wrote: post #190

Looking at the graph of price changes, it looks mostly like things that are cheaper come from abroad. Things that got more expensive are strictly domestic / unoffshorable. I guess this says a few things even before you get to regulation: - America outsourced a lot of engineering jobs of all sorts, leading to a lower supply of skilled labour at home. The places that received the outsourced jobs got better at it and do…

> Where in the past there were plenty of poor people happy to work in childcare for very little money

Citation needed on the "happy" part. People just did what they had to do to survive.

Re: The dictatorship of the articulate

#192

Post by d4rti » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 10:29 AM UTC

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #173

d4rti wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which regulation do you think is responsible? Personally I blame Right to Buy for the collapse in building new homes, as this graph [1] neatly illustrates; Local authority building collapses, Housing association building is a trickle by comparison. Private housebuilding has remained relatively stable since 1955 by comparison. The financial crisis also has a notable effect, but it's small by comparison. The cost of ho…

House size decreasing makes sense as people become more urban. Everything else you said is exactly spot on though. It was regulations intentionally written to make the rich richer and keep the poor poor that caused the issue. It wasn't a mistake, or an unintended effect of the nanny state going too far, quite the opposite.

The reason I mentioned it as such is that it's not really regulation, as much as the effects of the right to buy policy causing the public sector to stop building houses; reversing this wouldn't really be 'deregulating' but would actually be involving government to address a market failure.

Re: The dictatorship of the articulate

#193

Post by thrown_22 » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 10:30 AM UTC

rwl wrote: post #120

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #91

There's a reason we don't just "let the builders build". We used to do that (certainly to a massively greater extent than we do now), and the result was that although a few of them managed to construct monuments we can all be proud of, most of them built a pile of crap and/or damaged the places they built in and the people they nominally built for. This is true of literal buildings, but it's also true of a great many…

There was also a cost in human life. I saw a photo exhibition [1] about the construction of the Bay Bridge once, containing many beautiful shots from the point of view of the workers. The photos were taken by Peter Stackpole, a 20 year old kid who basically just talked his way onto the boats that took the workers out to the site. He took photos of the towers as they were being riveted together, of the cables being wo…

I'm fine with people dying during construction _if_ we foresee the deaths.

What I'm not fine with is killing people with lead/arsenic/asbestos/plastics because we didn't put new tech through it's paces before we deployed it en-mass.

We live in a world that is both too conservative and not anywhere near conservative enough.

Re: The dictatorship of the articulate

#194

Post by thrown_22 » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 10:33 AM UTC

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #178

gernb wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And further there are trade offs. I don't know the trade offs of bridge building is but the example i've heard in the past is, it's possible we could make it so no one ever dies in a plane crash. To do that with today's tech might make flights cost 2x, 3x, 4x more. Flights cost more = more people choose to drive (say SF to LA or LA to Vegas or DC to NYC). More people drive = more deaths. That isn't to say you shouldn…

I think plane crashes are not a good example of your point. Every time a crash happens, a massive post Mortem tends to occur to determine what needs to be done such that that specific failure mode will never happen again. Pilots have checklists on checklists on checklists that they must tick off during each procedure of the flight, with each point written in the blood of previous crashes. There isn’t discussion gener…

Plane crashes might have improved but plane flights have not. I'm old enough to remember flying in the 90s. I'd be willing to play Russian roulette if I could show up 15 minutes before an international flight today and still make it on the plane.

Re: The dictatorship of the articulate

#195

Post by thrown_22 » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 10:36 AM UTC

notahacker wrote: post #161

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #91

There's a reason we don't just "let the builders build". We used to do that (certainly to a massively greater extent than we do now), and the result was that although a few of them managed to construct monuments we can all be proud of, most of them built a pile of crap and/or damaged the places they built in and the people they nominally built for. This is true of literal buildings, but it's also true of a great many…

There's also a certain irony in looking favourably at the building speed and cost of an era when Depression labour oversupply could get a bridge built quickly and cheaply (with only 11 construction deaths!) but the longstanding invention of running water didn't find its way into grandma's house until well into the second decade of her life. And even people with running water saw it collected straight from the same ri…

Spoken like someone who's never had to carry all their daily water from a well.

Even if you can't drink tap water the fact that you don't need to carry the water for washing, bathing, cleaning, watering, etc. etc. etc. is an amazing improvement in quality of life.

Re: The dictatorship of the articulate

#196

Post by throw_a_grenade » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 10:37 AM UTC

gentoo wrote: post #137

spoonjim wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only 11 people died during the construction of the Golden Gate Bridge which is fewer than the number of people who jump off of it every year.

what is the acceptable number of people to die during bridge construction

I don't think death rate is a good OKR/KPI to be optimised for. If it becomes a metric, then we all know what will happen next.

Re: The dictatorship of the articulate

#197

Post by thrown_22 » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 10:39 AM UTC

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #156

This is what I consider the modern face of Fascism. I know you're not supposed to use that word, because it really upsets Fascists. But really, long passionately argued essays about how democratic governance is stopping us from returning to the good old days and we should let the powerful do whatever they want. Using dubious emotional arguments like laundromats can't be historic buildings? Calling things dictatorship…

You're not supposed to use that word because Mussolini used to kill political prisoners by feeding them caster oil until they died from diarrhea.

Re: The dictatorship of the articulate

#198

Post by shaftoe » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 10:40 AM UTC

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #156

This is what I consider the modern face of Fascism. I know you're not supposed to use that word, because it really upsets Fascists. But really, long passionately argued essays about how democratic governance is stopping us from returning to the good old days and we should let the powerful do whatever they want. Using dubious emotional arguments like laundromats can't be historic buildings? Calling things dictatorship…

Fascists believe in a strong authority. This article is arguing to have less of one, inherently more laisse faire.

Democracy doesn't mean freedom.

What you're describing is the modern face of communism.

I know you're not supposed to use the word because it really upsets communists.

Re: The dictatorship of the articulate

#199

Post by Dracophoenix » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 10:44 AM UTC

xorcist wrote: post #160

ngc248 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> it's not gonna be colonizing mars, building tunnels under LA, whatever, it's gonna be access to resources we already have. Healthcare, clean water, clean air... This exactly ... incremental improvements on existing infrastructure, increasing access etc would benefit more people than big bang, sexy stuff like hyperloop.

Let's be clear about one thing: The hyperloop was intended to cast suspicion on infrastructure investments, primary rail. Who knows what will happen in the future? Maybe low pressure tubing will rule and no one will use rail? Then your investment will be for naught! It's an age old method, the same as used in telecom to justify not spending on fiber infrastructure. Who knows what will happen in the future? Maybe wire…

> It's an age old method, the same as used in telecom to justify not spending on fiber infrastructure. Who knows what will happen in the future? Maybe wireless? Look at this idea what a future wireless service might bring!

With SpaceX's immediate success in becoming a global ISP, this turned out to be true.

Re: The dictatorship of the articulate

#200

Post by ZeroGravitas » Thu, Sep 01, 2022, 10:44 AM UTC

d4rti wrote: post #192

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

House size decreasing makes sense as people become more urban. Everything else you said is exactly spot on though. It was regulations intentionally written to make the rich richer and keep the poor poor that caused the issue. It wasn't a mistake, or an unintended effect of the nanny state going too far, quite the opposite.

The reason I mentioned it as such is that it's not really regulation, as much as the effects of the right to buy policy causing the public sector to stop building houses; reversing this wouldn't really be 'deregulating' but would actually be involving government to address a market failure.

The original idea of right to buy, as discussed by Labour, in the late 70s was to reinvest the money from sales in building new council houses.

The Tory policy implementation sold them off cheap and slowly ratcheted down the amount of the sales price going to that purpose and the building dramatically slowed. Again, not an accident or unintended effect.

Basically bribing the better off council house owners into voting conservative (and for policies that cause the housing crisis) at the expense of the poor.