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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#931
post #892

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it is easy for you to speak for me, not having experienced war and famine directly. Also, on that Russian score you are wrong: after what he did, the ex-USSR population suffered devastating poverty. And you have the cheek to defend him. Are you a troll?

No, after what he did Russia and the eastern bloc were more prosperous in the 90s than they were in the 80s. I do not recall bread lines and famine in former USSR countries in the 90s. I didn't know he required defending all that money that went into an arms race went back to the people, the greatness and pompous image of the soviet union ended,that's about it. Nostalgia is deceptive, USSR in the 80s was not better o…

i don't know in which universe you lived---

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#932
post #765

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he became increasingly frustrated over the years that this was not done. This may be true, but I think it's more likely that he doesn't care about it at all. He is an opportunist, and back then the best opportunity was to criticize the U.S. and Europe by insisting on international law. Today, he is saying Europe is a fascist Nazi oppressor.

I think it depends on what exactly you mean with it all. Upholding international law was most likely in his best interests, with Russia in its weak state this was probably the best option to stay relevant and have influence. If you mean that he believed that upholding international law is the right thing to do independent of Russia situation, that is something I can not say. Maybe someone who really studied Putin cou…

The international organization where his country happens to have a permanent seat should decide the fate of the invasion! No need for further study, this is simple politics.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#933
post #869
post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ideologies and power structures of the axis powers ceased to exist as a result of the outcome of WW2. This was not the case when the Russian Federation took on the mantle of the inheritor of the legacy of the USSR. Therefore it does not make sense to equate the history of authoritarianism in these places.

Ideologies don't simply cease to exist the day the war is over.

Of course not, but they lose their power in the imagination of the people when the people realise they had been lied to.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#934
post #851
post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK was already aligned with US ideology.

So was Russia, actually. Yeltsin went all-in on "shock therapy" and rapid privatization of the economy. If anything, Yeltsin was too aligned with US capitalist ideology.

Capitalism isn't the entirety of US ideology, and I would hardly say Russia was aligned given how vastly different their outcomes were compared to other eastern European nations.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#935
post #568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah the old "there's only two sovereign nations, USA and Russia, and everyone in between are just puppets" line of thought that seems so entrenched in the Russian Federation, presumably because the Soviets could not conceive the common people of any country wanting anything without being agitated through propaganda (after all, when you have near total control over the media, independent thought does seem like an aberr…

Please remember that a Cuba is sovereign nation, but USA were willing to go to the nuclear war to have Soviet troops and equipment removed. But the way, USA still occupies part of Cuban soil against will of Cuban people, doesn't they?

Suggesting the US wanted to go to nuclear war is a rather colourful reimagining of the whole Cuban missile crisis. In fact the crisis demonstrated the complete opposite, that neither side wanted full out nuclear war. Both the USSR removed their nuclear warheads from Cuba and the US removed theirs from Turkey and Italy as concessions. Soviet military presence didn't end in Cuba nor did US military presence end in Turkey and Italy.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#936

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One can debate whether this is a legitimate point of view, that for example Crimea was given to Ukraine after 1922 and therefore they are not entitled to it after the desolution of the USSR. I do not know and have no opinion at the moment either. But no matter what, this passage is a far cry from Russia wants to grab land left and right and conquer everyone.

Okay, so the thread started from your request to provide sources for Putin discussing historical borders of Ukraine: "I just read the entire address by Putin [1] after the invasion started - it's all about NATO expansion, historical borders or something along that lines make no real appearance in the entire thing. "I know that he supposedly said things more in line with your point on other occasions but I never came…

Let me put one thing first, I really could not care less who is to blame for what, whether Russia is the bad guy or the US or NATO or the EU or the Illuminati. I am interested in understanding what went wrong and maybe get some insight into what should be done better the next time.

With that out of the way, after the invasion started I got somewhat interested in the conflict and how it developed. Pretty quickly it seemed pretty clear to me that NATO expansion was most likely the main driving factor behind Putin's decision to start this war. But for many in the West it seems incomprehensible that NATO's actions might have played any role, even less that Putin's reaction might to some extend be understandable.

So following the invasion this narrative spread in the West that Putin is simply mad and wants to rebuild the Soviet empire - first Ukraine, then the Baltic states, then the rest of the world. And as I said, I could never find much evidence for this explanation. The thread started with the following.

So when putin claims casus belli over another nation's land due to previous ownership a whole bunch of times [...]

So I thought casus belli should maybe be best addressed in Putin's address after the invasion started and I never read it completely before. In there essentially nothing about territorial claims. So I asked for something else as I was of course aware of that other explanation. You pointed me towards On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians which, as you point out, talks about how Russia may have legitimate claims for territories in former Soviet states.

My point is just that the language in there does not match - at least in my opinion - what some people want to explain with this. »All other territorial acquisitions are subject to discussion, negotiations, given that the ground has been revoked.« I just can not see the imperial Russia in that language that would make this a reasonable explanation for the invasion, especially if you contrast it with the clear and direct language used to address NATO expansion and similar topics, repeatedly again and again for three decades now.

So if you think I moved the goal posts, then I probably just did not make clear enough where they are. I am looking for evidence that supports the theory that mad Putin simply wants to rebuild an empire as his legacy. And not some bits here and there, but something that makes it similarly plausible as NATO expansion as the leading cause, which is supported by countless speeches and documents with no uncertain language spanning decades.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#937
post #621
post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this claim pop up pretty frequently but I think it ignores a rather important factor and that was that those countries suffered complete defeat at the hands of the US, that meant the US could impose any ideology they wished on the country. This was never the case with Russia. Now for sure, the USSR ended its life as a failed economic state, and the Russian Federation that emerged may have been willing to accept…

The EU didn't have to conquer the Eastern Europe to enforce lots of its legislation (as well as support programs) on its new member states. And compared to other post-Soviet states, the EU members are doing pretty well. So I think there is a counterexample in your claim that you need to conquer. It was a failure of neoliberalism.

Your thesis assume that Eastern European countries were fully on board with Soviet ideology until the fall of the Soviet union. In fact, most of the Eastern European nations had been forced into the Soviet sphere of influence against their people's will. Multiple popular protests that were brutally crushed by Soviet aligned militaries suggests the discontentment never went away. So I don't think the ideology in those Eastern European states needed to shift significantly after that fall of the USSR. The EU didn't need to conquer Eastern Europe because their people wanted to align themselves with Western Europe all along.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#938

Say what you will, he seemed a politician very keen on world peace, beyond mere lip service. He understood the lacunae of the Soviet system and genuinely set about to reform them. But ultimately it was Ethno-national interests in Ukraine, Baltics and Central Asian republics along with the rise of opportunist power-grabbers like Yeltsin that did him and Soviet Union in. And perhaps his own reluctance to follow the Chi…

> And perhaps his own reluctance to follow the Chinese model.

I always thought it was the other way. The Chinese saw what Gorbachev did and didn't like the results. June 4th (this was 1989, where Gorbachev's reforms were well on their way) was the turning point where the CCP decided collectively to conclusively reject political reforms and crack down on those who insisted on them. I think the hardliners in CCP felt vindicated when USSR disintegrated a short while after believing they dodged a similar bullet by the crackdowns.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#939

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, so the thread started from your request to provide sources for Putin discussing historical borders of Ukraine: "I just read the entire address by Putin [1] after the invasion started - it's all about NATO expansion, historical borders or something along that lines make no real appearance in the entire thing. "I know that he supposedly said things more in line with your point on other occasions but I never came…

Let me put one thing first, I really could not care less who is to blame for what, whether Russia is the bad guy or the US or NATO or the EU or the Illuminati. I am interested in understanding what went wrong and maybe get some insight into what should be done better the next time. With that out of the way, after the invasion started I got somewhat interested in the conflict and how it developed. Pretty quickly it se…

Think about it that way: Ukraine was not going to join NATO any time soon while having significant chunk of its territory occupied by nuclear superpower. NATO states knew it, Ukraine knew it (Zelensky's own election campaign was along the lines "You won't take us?! Fuck you NATO we won't even apply then!"), and _Russia themselves absolutely knew it_. Also, Ukraine offered to commit to neutrality multiple times during peace negotiations, but Russia apparently wasn't interested.

Now, of course, you could reasonably disagree and continue pressing the narrative that, no, Russia has all the reasons to be concerned. However, in fact there is a Russian neighbor that shares a land border with Russia that is currently in the process of actually joining NATO for real - Finland. And what do Russia do about that? Invades them? No. Maybe a naval blockade and 100k military personnel "on exercise" near their border? No, nothing. In fact, Russia is so unconcerned that according to satellite images they have recently transferred bunch of personnel and equipment from a military base near border with Finland[0]... to fight in Ukraine. It is almost like Russia is not _that_ afraid of NATO and is actually pursuing some other goals in Ukraine... Reasonable person may even conclude that Russia was lying and faking its concern about NATO expansion after consulting the map and determining that for some reason NATO is still not nuking Moscow from Latvia that has been a member for some time now... Go figure!

[0]: https://yle.fi/news/3-12523695

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#940

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not trying to be contrarian here but I'd say their cold war just began when the soviet union disintegrated. Because now their new cold war was Russia exerting influence over them and manipulating their governance. Which is what Ukraine has suffered these last 30+ years.

what do you mean by "their" ? Because Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria managed to properly free themselves from Russia and are now solidly in the EU and NATO

"Properly" glosses over a lot of the intricacies of their politics. Like I said, Russia was disorganized at the time but you should not make the mistake of thinking they gladly released all of their buffers without a fight.

We have glaring evidence of their struggle to maintain power over their old buffer countries like Chechnya and Ukraine, so one can only imagine what they must have done to the others.

Edit: Just one example of how the transition wasn't without opposition is the January 1991 events in Lithuania when Gorbachev tried to re-establish soviet rule and this ended in 14 Lithuanian citizens dead.

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