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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#911

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Transport them? What are you talking about? The Soviets had bases all over the place in Eastern Europe. The case being discussed here, Eastern Germany, was just behind the iron curtain, remember? Soviet troops were at ~300 locations on the GDR territory, ~50 airfields, over 300,000 soldiers, over 4,000 tanks.

The stationed troops and machines were not nearly enough to handle the situation, see my sibling comments. You can't suppress protests of several millions with 300k not-so-willing troops and 5000 not-so-good tanks (the Czechoslovaks manufactured their own tanks because of how bad the Soviet manufacturing was). For one thing, the problem is your tanks and troops have to be ready all around the country - the protesting…

> The stationed troops and machines were not nearly enough to handle the situation, see my sibling comments. You can't suppress protests of several millions with 300k not-so-willing troops and 5000 not-so-good tanks

I don't know how old you are or where you were at the time. I was there. In the GDR, in East Berlin. On the streets. And I can tell you, a few tanks and troops getting their guns out would have made major impressions on people.

It's not just a numbers game. You are greatly oversimplifying history here. Quite naively so, I might add.

It's a great achievement of history that Gorbachev made the Soviets keep their feet still and among many eastern Germans it's regarded as quite the miracle that this whole episode went down non-violently. Look around in the world in the last decades. This was the major exception, and Gorbachev was central to that.

Also, let's get the picture of the situation straight. He didn't just passively sit bunkered in in Moscow, letting things happen. He actively went out to meet leaders of other involved powers, including the German chancellor and foreign minister, Kohl and Genscher, which he outlived by a few years.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#912

Gorbachev secured his place in history by what he didn't do. While never endorsing the end of the eastern bloc, he made it clear beginning in the late 1980's that unlike his predecessors, he would not oppose democratic reforms in Eastern Europe by force. To general astonishment, he kept this promise, and with the regrettable exception of Lithuania this commitment to not repeating the crimes of his predecessors is Gor…

Not true, under Gorbachov SU raided every and each country seceding SU. One example being Georgia where Russians soldairs raided public protest and killed dozens of kids.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#914
post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All governments create corruption; centalized systems just have zero checks and balances.

"Checks and balances" mean nothing unless you specify who's checking who. System where the military keeps a check on the president, or the king keeps a check on parliament, aren't really much better than the "checker" being in charge all the time. And systems based on mutual checking tend to just reel from one constitutional crisis to another.

The quality of implementation definitely matters, agreed. However, the Soviet states by and large didn't even have a shitty form in place, the party leader was an 'elected' dictator.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#915

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was a gerontocracy, with old dryed husks dying on the throne pre gorbachev. It was also mostly resource exporting back then, econimically dependent on the west. The oil prices during the gulf war killed them.

We call it a gerontocracy, but all those guys were considerably younger than the current and previous US presidents, at 79 and 76 respectively.

But with the Soviet healthcare regime of the time (mainly, I'd guess, smoking like fucking chimneys), their effective age was probably at least that of Drumpf and Biden.

To take a President more contemporary to Andropov and Gorbachev: Jimmy Carter is still around, at 97.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#916
post #859

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because there isn't a strict naming convention doesn't mean there isn't a longstanding convention in English-speaking countries of giving wars boring names based on the participants or theatre, even when it's absolutely unambiguous that the other side was the belligerent. Picking a ludicrously overblown name like "Northern Aggression" for a failed secession makes no sense in that context, but plenty of sense in…

> Just because there isn't a strict naming convention doesn't mean there isn't a longstanding convention in English-speaking countries of giving wars boring names based on the participants or theatre That is one name that is ascribed to a conflict, but we often have many. The Forgotten War is the Korean War, The Great War is World War 1, The American Civil War had many names. > Picking a ludicrously overblown name li…

> How is it overblown? It's a descriptive title that is certainly controversial, but if you accept that particular viewpoint, it's simply descriptive.

Suuuure. Nothing remotely overblown about the sole popular name for conflict involving English speakers with "aggression" or similar being that one. Completely normal name for a war with no propaganda value for Lost Cause mythology, and just coincidental its print usage maps perfectly to Southern indignation at the Civil Rights movement.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#917
post #909
post #902

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Russia briefly had free elections. Unfortunately, this did not result in a functioning democratic society - not because of lack of resources, but because of lack of desire to resist the oligarchical clique that managed to control, subvert and ultimately destroy the democracy. That wasn't the problem of the economy - in fact, Russian economy in a better shape now than it was in the 90s - it's a societal problem.…

> Russian economy in a better shape now than it was in the 90s It's too late, though. The 90s were a make-or-break time for democracy and freedom... and it broke. Initially there was a great deal of enthusiasm for the elimination of the Soviet Union, but ultimately democracy needs to produce results economically, and if it doesn't, then people will reject it. > many institutions - including major part of technologica…

Again, it did produce results economically - after a brief disarray period, the economical situation in Russia improved and the economical situation of average Russians universally became much better than under the USSR. Incomparably better one might say. Unfortunately, along with this improvement, there was ongoing process of consolidating power by the oligarchical clique, led by Putin, which was largely ignored by the society - in part precisely because it did not result (at least not directly) in any harm to an average citizen yet. If you don't make the waves and don't cross the wrong people, you'd be ok - you can have at least decent middle-class living, by Russian standards, and if you're lucky, maybe even a little rich (being really rich is entirely different game, which requires you to be part of the oligarchy). That's one of the reasons most of them didn't care - economical side was still good, and freedom - who needs freedom?

> I was actually talking about the people who want to establish a Christian theocracy in the United States

Ah, the imaginary theocrats. I'm not afraid of them, I must say. I am afraid of those who actively suppress debate important to society right now, right this moment. Imaginary Christian theocrats can't prohibit discussing important topics on 90% of internet platforms, can't suppress publication of vital information they think is politically inconvenient, can't fire me from my job for expressing a wrong opinion, can't force me to sign political statements as a condition of employment or getting education, can't introduce racial and gender quotas in education and employment, can't exclude people from educational opportunities for having wrong ethnic ancestry, can't reintroduce racial segregation and can't institute mandatory indoctrination programs - at least, I haven't seen them doing it anywhere yet. But I have seen other people doing just that, all over the nation. And those people I am afraid of - because they want to do this, and they can do this, and they are doing this - and much more - right now. If it ever comes to Christian theocrats doing these things - then they would be the dangerous group, but right now they're not even close.

> who refuse to accept the results of democratic elections,

Somehow the tradition of refusing to accept electoral loss only counts for the last election, not for all the elections that happened before that. Bush was accused of stealing an election for all his term (still occasionally accused now), but nobody remembers that anymore. Funny how it works.

> who are perfectly happy with minority rule via electoral college

You mean, like the one described in the founding documents of the state? It's a real shame people of the US still cling to stupid things like the US constitution. True democracy would require abandoning it of course. But only in case where it benefits the certain party - if it does not, the Constitution is sacred. Just look it up historically - if the electoral college favors party A, it's a sacred institution, if on the next election it favors party B - it's an outdated relic. But everybody is free to bloviate as they will, it's no problem. The problem starts when one of the parties tries to shut off the debate completely. And I know some very non-imaginary people working on it right now. Google just announced they'd boot any application that allows dissent (sorry, "misinformation") to be published from their platform. That scared me much more than imaginary theocrats - they don't have the thousandths of the power Google has.

> who give dictatorial powers to Governors of their own party

Er, what? Which Governor has dictatorial powers and how did they pull it off? I am not aware of any Governor that has any dictatorial powers, and US laws do not allow one to be "given" such power - of course, with the exception of when there's an "emergency" and you want to shut down the state and put everybody under house arrest. Then it's ok - but as I remember, those were not "theocrats" that did that, so we better not talk about it any more.

Unless by "dictatorial powers" you mean "he's doing something I don't like, despite being duly elected by the majority and widely supported by the population of his own state"? Then it happens all the time of course.

> have a laundry list of subjects they ban from discussion in schools via school boards

I may be ok with banning schools from discussing topics with kids that parents do not want to be discussed with their kids. Because they are kids. They are not adults yet - they may need certain measure of guardianship before they can approach adult subjects. Especially ones that can have permanent consequences. What I am very not ok with is when the same is applied to adults - without any age limit, forever, and when nobody is free to publish and discuss certain things without the approval from the Powers That Be.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#918
post #796

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Ask any psychologist with a knowledge of the military world about the number of far right militants wearing an uniform and you'll be shocked by the response. Uniforms and weapons are like sex for some people. Extreme right wingers want to wear uniforms and carry weapons at any cost: it's the way their brain is wired that makes them so inclined to the show of strength, obsession about physical efficiency, appearing an…

> Extreme right wingers want to wear uniforms and carry weapons at any cost: it's the way their brain is wired

You lost your credibility here when you took a large group and applied a judgement on all of them based on how “their brain is wired”. Replace “extreme right wingers” in your sentence with almost any other group without evidence and you will likely not agree with your own statement.

> The tale about Nazis in the Ukraine army is true for pretty much every country, including mine and yours.

Please provide evidence to this statement and the following paragraph. You have found a hypothesis that fits your narrative. That does not make it true.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#919
post #917
post #909

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russian economy in a better shape now than it was in the 90s It's too late, though. The 90s were a make-or-break time for democracy and freedom... and it broke. Initially there was a great deal of enthusiasm for the elimination of the Soviet Union, but ultimately democracy needs to produce results economically, and if it doesn't, then people will reject it. > many institutions - including major part of technologica…

Again, it did produce results economically - after a brief disarray period, the economical situation in Russia improved and the economical situation of average Russians universally became much better than under the USSR. Incomparably better one might say. Unfortunately, along with this improvement, there was ongoing process of consolidating power by the oligarchical clique, led by Putin, which was largely ignored by…

I'd love to argue with you more, but this is already getting way off topic from Gorbachev, and I can see it becoming a massively long tangent into US politics. (I probably shouldn't have taken the bait in the first place.)

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#920
post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually US did a lot to help Yeltsin reelected, never stopped the expansion eastwards, attacked Serbia without UN approval, pushed for Kosovo referendum under Nato occupation, never stopped the military exercises and flights on russian border and tried its best to meddle in Russia's internal affairs and us economists were among those that most pushed Yeltsin for the shock transition towards a capitalist market which…

> I think US did enough divide and conquer and meddling to help bringing back an authoritarian government. There is a phrase in Russia, :) "But in USA they lynch people". The idea is that in Russia it's often that discussion is interrupted by listing the ills of America, to avoid talking about Russia or for other reasons, so it's easy to justify pointing fingers to "the real evil". I think you're wrong and your argum…

> Current Russian laws mean little to define Russia de facto. Just like Hitler laws meant little at the time.

Legal status is the difference between a totalitarian and authoritarian state.

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