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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#861

Post by krzyk »

nivenkos wrote: post #731
poushkar wrote: post #711

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here we come again with the "Ukrainian nationalism" and "coup". So boring. Will you ever update your guide on Russian propaganda? Even the russian troll factory stopped using these arguments like 2 years ago.

I'm not pro-Russian. But here in Europe we've had 25% of our savings and purchasing power destroyed almost overnight, for a conflict that really has nothing to do with us (CIS borders and nationalism after the USSR). Why can't we just be neutral? We didn't do this for Georgia's claim in Ossetia or Armenia's claim with Azerbaijan (both similar scenarios), or the Iraq-Iran war, etc.

> Why can't we just be neutral? We didn't do this for Georgia's claim in Ossetia or Armenia's claim with Azerbaijan (both similar scenarios), or the Iraq-Iran war, etc.

Errors of the past are not a good way to go further.

Lack of any defense for Georgia was very sad (similarly for Chechnya, but Russians might look at it a bit more angry). Fortunatelly Ukraine is to close to EU borders to be ignored and handed over to Russian war mongering.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#862

Post by Atatator »

jollybean wrote: post #471
somat wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true, the question is, what was the difference between the occupation of japan and germany and the occupation of afganistan, iraq or vietnam. The lesson of the latter is that all it takes is 20 years of low level combat until the occupying country gets tired and leaves. the lesson of the former is that defeated countries can become your greatest allies. As to what leads a nation to choose one path or the othe…

Japan and Germany were extremely well organized and coherent states before the war. They had both civic and long established cultural basis to rebuild to. 'Afghanistan' is barely a state, it never really was a nation. It's a 'border' around a chaotic gaggle of tribes living in the past. They'll ebb and flow given different kinds of leadership, most of which won't have anything to do with anything happening outside ur…

I wonder - when was the last time you were in Russia to speak so decisively about the country and Russians?

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#863

Post by wildmanx »

ItsTooMuch wrote: post #659
flohofwoe wrote: post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how it was in the rest of Eastern Europe, but for instance the East German government was much more 'conservative' than Gorbatchev and heavily opposed to perestroika/glasnost. If Gorbatchev wouldn't have left Honecker hanging dry, Honecker would have welcomed the Soviet tanks against his own people. You don't need to be able to compete with the US military technology to kill unarmed protesters. T-54s wil…

The thing is, the tanks would have to get there. Getting a tank 1000 km past at least 3 unfriendly borders is an enormous logistics issue, and a major resource drain - resources that simply did not exist, not even talking about the human resources. And you're discounting the strength of millions of super-angry people too much. They would destroy the few tanks with rocks (or molotovs, as illustrated in Ukraine) if the…

Transport them? What are you talking about? The Soviets had bases all over the place in Eastern Europe.

The case being discussed here, Eastern Germany, was just behind the iron curtain, remember? Soviet troops were at ~300 locations on the GDR territory, ~50 airfields, over 300,000 soldiers, over 4,000 tanks.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#864

Post by krzyk »

ajvs wrote: post #803
rags2riches wrote: post #759

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Millions of Europeans in nations bordering Russia disagrees. This conflict is all about us. We'll take the economic troubles and the cold winters as they come. We can still see clearly that we're not freezing in a bomb shelter or trench, as the Ukranians are on our behalf. Take your neutrality and what-abouts and stuff them.

Ah yes let's keep funding them to throw their lives away for us in a war they can't win, that's certainly the more morally respectable position.

Oh, they sure can win and for our future I hope they will.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#865

Post by krzyk »

nivenkos wrote: post #705
me_me_me wrote: post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine if Trump had really been a Russian agent and had returned Alaska to Russia, would you expect all subsequent administrations to just respect that it is Russian now? Huh? You mean: Imagine if Russia just annexed Alaska after they sent their green men over-there, to disrupt and takeover the region. Since when Ukraine just gave up on crimea? They were bullied off it and same with donbass. Their military was wea…

No, I was referring to when Khrushchev just arbitrarily transferred the Crimea to the Ukrainian SSR. It had been independent / Tatar before, and Russification meant it was mainly populated by Russians. The issue is that Ukraine refuses to allow for the self-determination of the Crimea and Donbass since Euromaidan. Why can't they just allow internationally managed referendums to take place? This would be far better th…

> It had been independent / Tatar before, and Russification meant it was mainly populated by Russians.

And before Russification it was Tatars, so either way it is Russian like e.g. India or Japan.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#866

Post by krzyk »

nivenkos wrote: post #748
blueflow wrote: post #739

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Alaska is a bad example to pick since it has been Russian before.

And Crimea was in the RSFSR, both when it was Tatar (although autonomous then) and during Russification.

And previously it was Turkish and before it was Kiev Rus, we can go on

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#867

Post by simonh »

pydry wrote: post #858
simonh wrote: post #841

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every country has unsavoury elements within it, but attacking a country with a Jewish president for being fascist, because there are a few thousand racists in the south, is bullshit. Especially when you're at the same time busily funding and promoting fascist and racist groups all over Europe and the US, as Russia has been.

Zelensky asked the few thousand fascists/nazis to lay down their arms for a cease fire - in order to fulfil his primary campaign promise of ending the donbass war. They refused and called him a traitor. Being Jewish they probably called him a few other names too. He tacitly accepted this insubordination without a fuss, as far as I can see. These days he lavishes Azov with praise. In which other countries does this ha…

Russia has had problems with insubordination too, with soldiers refusing to fight. Frankly I don't see how it makes any difference. None of that makes Ukraine a fascist state.

Nor does it change the fact that when it suits it's own interests, Russia promotes and funds fascists. Clearly none of this has anything to do with fascism, Russia didn't send massive columns of armoured vehicles and thousands of troops at Kyiv over Azov battalion.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#868

Post by krzyk »

dontlaugh wrote: post #802
KingOfCoders wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people who "won" the cold war are those Eastern countries that had been occupied by Russia for 45 years and fought for their freedom in Prague, Budapest and especially in Gdańsk.

Such freedom, to get pillaged by western companies. We are now in massive debt, most public services are privatised and collapsing, the young can't afford rents, wages are constantly dropping relative to expenses. It was the profit extractors that won the cold war.

> Such freedom, to get pillaged by western companies.

I prefer that to being tortured in prison or being shot by soviet soldiers sitting in our borders.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#869

Post by lapcat »

hetman wrote: post #582
lapcat wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you study geopolitics and history Please don't make assumptions about what other people have or haven't studied. > They also have a long, long history of authoritarianism. You could say the same about the Axis powers in WW2.

The ideologies and power structures of the axis powers ceased to exist as a result of the outcome of WW2. This was not the case when the Russian Federation took on the mantle of the inheritor of the legacy of the USSR. Therefore it does not make sense to equate the history of authoritarianism in these places.

Ideologies don't simply cease to exist the day the war is over.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#870

Post by ItsTooMuch »

wildmanx wrote: post #863
ItsTooMuch wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, the tanks would have to get there. Getting a tank 1000 km past at least 3 unfriendly borders is an enormous logistics issue, and a major resource drain - resources that simply did not exist, not even talking about the human resources. And you're discounting the strength of millions of super-angry people too much. They would destroy the few tanks with rocks (or molotovs, as illustrated in Ukraine) if the…

Transport them? What are you talking about? The Soviets had bases all over the place in Eastern Europe. The case being discussed here, Eastern Germany, was just behind the iron curtain, remember? Soviet troops were at ~300 locations on the GDR territory, ~50 airfields, over 300,000 soldiers, over 4,000 tanks.

The stationed troops and machines were not nearly enough to handle the situation, see my sibling comments. You can't suppress protests of several millions with 300k not-so-willing troops and 5000 not-so-good tanks (the Czechoslovaks manufactured their own tanks because of how bad the Soviet manufacturing was).

For one thing, the problem is your tanks and troops have to be ready all around the country - the protesting people are moving across the state quickly. One day there's a protest in Prague, second day it's in Brno - but you can't move your 300k troops and 5000 tanks from Prague to Brno in a day. And then the next day it's Ostrava and you have to do it again. Then an incident happens and that provokes a 10x bigger protest in Prague, Brno and Ostrava at the same time. That's impossible. You need much, much more troops and tanks to handle this scale of rebellion - and the requested air support that never came. And your tanks will never make people go back to work, anyways.

(I'm discussing Gorbachev, not GDR specifically)

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