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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

reuters.com

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#841

Post by simonh »

ajvs wrote: post #796
V__ wrote: post #765

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he became increasingly frustrated over the years that this was not done. This may be true, but I think it's more likely that he doesn't care about it at all. He is an opportunist, and back then the best opportunity was to criticize the U.S. and Europe by insisting on international law. Today, he is saying Europe is a fascist Nazi oppressor.

Quoted post unavailable.

Every country has unsavoury elements within it, but attacking a country with a Jewish president for being fascist, because there are a few thousand racists in the south, is bullshit. Especially when you're at the same time busily funding and promoting fascist and racist groups all over Europe and the US, as Russia has been.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#843

Post by koheripbal »

dontlaugh wrote: post #802
KingOfCoders wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people who "won" the cold war are those Eastern countries that had been occupied by Russia for 45 years and fought for their freedom in Prague, Budapest and especially in Gdańsk.

Such freedom, to get pillaged by western companies. We are now in massive debt, most public services are privatised and collapsing, the young can't afford rents, wages are constantly dropping relative to expenses. It was the profit extractors that won the cold war.

This might be a popular notion in privileged white western high schools, but the transformation in eastern EU countries has been breathtaking.

The poverty divide between east and west Germany was so visibly apparent when you walked across that line. Today, both sides of Berlin are vibrant and thriving. The same can be said in every capital city that has joined the EU. Massive prosperity compared to the Soviet poverty.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#844

Post by chx »

idlewords wrote: post #61

Gorbachev secured his place in history by what he didn't do. While never endorsing the end of the eastern bloc, he made it clear beginning in the late 1980's that unlike his predecessors, he would not oppose democratic reforms in Eastern Europe by force. To general astonishment, he kept this promise, and with the regrettable exception of Lithuania this commitment to not repeating the crimes of his predecessors is Gor…

Well, while the satellite countries were allowed to leave, the dissolution of the Soviet Union was met with stiff and deadly resistance. Not just Lithuania but Latvia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan all had their deadly clashes with Soviet forces.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#845

Post by wawjgreen »

hilbert42 wrote: post #797
wawjgreen wrote: post #775

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's you again, the "committee" man. actually, since Garbageoff did not do well in school and he was admitted to the universities in Leningrad on the strength of a medal he had won that was given to him based on the large amount of crops he had harvested (he was a "machinist"). There he wrote to his family members that the studies were "grueling", meaning he merely winged it and because he was not cut out for educati…

"...(he was a "machinist")." As an uneducated idiot, I apologize for having made the post (sorry, Dunning-Kruger had gotten the better of me). Only yesterday, I posted a HN comment based on my machining experience: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32654203

No post body was provided.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#846

Post by jollybean »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #480
somat wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true, the question is, what was the difference between the occupation of japan and germany and the occupation of afganistan, iraq or vietnam. The lesson of the latter is that all it takes is 20 years of low level combat until the occupying country gets tired and leaves. the lesson of the former is that defeated countries can become your greatest allies. As to what leads a nation to choose one path or the othe…

maybe the difference is a culture you understand vs a culture you don't. Many observers have said for years that middle east statebuildibg efforts were doomed - we left iraq worse off than we found it

Middle East never had proper states. 100 years ago it was just a bunch of Ottoman administrative divisions. Since then it's been chaos and strong men. Iraq is better off now but maybe not by much.

Arguably Kurds should get their own territory.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#847

Post by dontlaugh »

vandreas2 wrote: post #815
dontlaugh wrote: post #802

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such freedom, to get pillaged by western companies. We are now in massive debt, most public services are privatised and collapsing, the young can't afford rents, wages are constantly dropping relative to expenses. It was the profit extractors that won the cold war.

I guess you could always go the Romania way, starve the population until debt is zero. The profit extractors were the government but at least it was "our" thieves not some foreign companies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_debt_of_the_Socialist_...

It's also important to remember why that debt was paid.

Our government had taken IMF loans with the goal of expanding industry to sell products to the West. We did, then we were prevented from selling finished products to many countries. Some of the production was redirected internally and towards trade with other socialist countries, but the loan denominated in dollars remained.

Then the IMF demanded we pay back the loan early, while mostly only allowing us to export food. Today this would be called sanctions. This was a tactic to intentionally create scarcity of food in the country, which coupled with constant propaganda (especially from Radio Free Europe) and arming and funding local fascists (including the famous snipers shooting into crowds), culminated in a bloody coup in '89. Similar tactics have been used by NATO powers against other countries.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#848

Post by selimthegrim »

selimthegrim wrote: post #513
ghostwriter wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's the US embassy being very pedantic about the matter to the extent they find it important to dedicate the starting paragraph of the entire section about the US government, even though the difference is just about being more accurate. in fact, accuracy in founding principles of governing is as important as accuracy of long-distance ballistic motion planning. > btw... whats the point in arguing the u.s isn't a demo…

You need to go back and read about Doerr’s Rebellion and the Guarantee Clause.

Dorr Rebellion my mistake.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#849

Post by hef19898 »

wawjgreen wrote: post #785
hef19898 wrote: post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to dimish your experience in any way, there are only a few things tgat are worse than that. Blaming all of it on Gorbatshev is too easy so. We cannot forget the US meddling in Afghan affairs, nor the fact the long term intervention of the West led to similar results. Nor wad the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan very kind on the Afghan people in general.

Thank you. Well, since today we hear about Garbageoff, so I discussed my opinion from THIS side of things. For sure, many other "players" are also to blame for a lot of the mess my people have found themselves in.

Which makes absolute sense. Gorbachev is held in such high regard in the West, rightly so IMHO, that it is easy to ignore and forget the other points of view.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#850

Post by lumost »

nradov wrote: post #482
lumost wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One aspect that I never hear about in the collapse of the soviet union. To what extent did opening the markets to quickly break soviet industry? While by the 1990s Soviet industry was notoriously in-efficient compared to western counterparts - it still existed and functioned. Opening the flood gates seemed to result in everyone rapidly selling equipment for scrap and killed any existing supply chains. Would the resul…

That's kind of a moot question because a slower transition was never even an option. The USSR was rapidly collapsing into anarchy. Especially in the outer areas, the security forces stopped obeying orders. In a lot of factories, workers simply left and looters hauled away everything of value. Industry ceased to function in a matter of months.

I'd be interested in understanding the "rapid collapse" more. Do you have any good resources on this? Was this due to the USSR being dependent on coerced demand/supply from other communist block nations?
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