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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

reuters.com

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#791

Post by simonh »

nivenkos wrote: post #756
simonh wrote: post #750

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The issue is that Ukraine refuses to allow for the self-determination of the Crimea and Donbass since Euromaidan. Wow, just wow. And how exactly were they supposed to do that? The unity government was declared on 24th February and was formally convened on 27th February 2014. How long did Russia wait to see if the new government would accept regional referendums? Well, Russian forces seized control of key strategic s…

Yeah, Russia is aggressive and opportunistic. Peacekeepers should be sent to carry that out (e.g. from the UN directly). But dragging out open war like this is just terrible for everyone.

Isn't that up to them? I mean the Ukrainians? It's not as if the west is forcing them against their will to keep on fighting for their country and freedom.

In the first months of the war hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians returned to their country to sign up to fight. We either support them, or abandon them to their fate. I don't see how you can credibly claim that abandoning them, despite their appeals for support, is better for them and in their interests. It's clearly in the interests of the Russian government, but why should the west care about that?

Sending UN peace keepers is a nice idea, but unfortunately Russia is a permanent member of the UN security council, with a veto.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#793

Post by cpursley »

T-zex wrote: post #668
hypersoar wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw that Pizza Hut commercial earlier today and I can't stop thinking about it. It has so much going on. It's the victory of capitalism over Soviet communism, the rise of neoliberalism to global hegemony, and the "End of History" in the form of a 30-second ad for pizza.

Gorbachev saw Pizza Hut come and leave his country.

For the best, Dodo pizza is much better.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo_Pizza

^ Russian politics aside, Dodo has some impressive tech and processes.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#794

Post by refurb »

sph wrote: post #393
paulpauper wrote: post #72

Like Bill clinton, he helped define 90s geopolitics. It's remarkable how he faded away like he did. Nelson Mandela, Yassir Arafat , Ariel Sharon..that whole era.

They were too moderate for the modern age. Centrism has gone out of fashion.

You think Yassir Arafat or Ariel Sharon were regarded as "centrist"?

Absolutely not.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#795

Post by jim180 »

credit_guy wrote: post #487

Rest in peace Sir. Because of you hundreds of millions of people are living a better life. A pity that Putin came shortly after and is in the active process of destroying a country (or two). But you couldn't control that. You did more than most people in the world to move humankind towards a better place.

Um, no. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_Events_(Lithuania)

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#796

Post by ajvs »

V__ wrote: post #765
danbruc wrote: post #743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your link [1]. He [Putin] became briefly close to President George W Bush - who even claimed to have glimpsed Putin's soul - until the Iraq War drove them apart. In Iraq, Putin insisted that international law must be upheld - no invasion could be allowed without approval from the United Nations Security Council, and that approval was not forthcoming. This is also Putin and it is not singular. If you listen to hi…

> he became increasingly frustrated over the years that this was not done. This may be true, but I think it's more likely that he doesn't care about it at all. He is an opportunist, and back then the best opportunity was to criticize the U.S. and Europe by insisting on international law. Today, he is saying Europe is a fascist Nazi oppressor.

No post body was provided.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#797

Post by hilbert42 »

wawjgreen wrote: post #775
hilbert42 wrote: post #758

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"he was an uneducated idiot," The above statement is not true based on any number of authoritative accounts. By saying that you have undermined any value your comment otherwise may have had.

it's you again, the "committee" man. actually, since Garbageoff did not do well in school and he was admitted to the universities in Leningrad on the strength of a medal he had won that was given to him based on the large amount of crops he had harvested (he was a "machinist"). There he wrote to his family members that the studies were "grueling", meaning he merely winged it and because he was not cut out for educati…

"...(he was a "machinist")."

As an uneducated idiot, I apologize for having made the post (sorry, Dunning-Kruger had gotten the better of me).

Only yesterday, I posted a HN comment based on my machining experience: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32654203

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#798

Post by danbruc »

V__ wrote: post #765
danbruc wrote: post #743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your link [1]. He [Putin] became briefly close to President George W Bush - who even claimed to have glimpsed Putin's soul - until the Iraq War drove them apart. In Iraq, Putin insisted that international law must be upheld - no invasion could be allowed without approval from the United Nations Security Council, and that approval was not forthcoming. This is also Putin and it is not singular. If you listen to hi…

> he became increasingly frustrated over the years that this was not done. This may be true, but I think it's more likely that he doesn't care about it at all. He is an opportunist, and back then the best opportunity was to criticize the U.S. and Europe by insisting on international law. Today, he is saying Europe is a fascist Nazi oppressor.

I think it depends on what exactly you mean with it all. Upholding international law was most likely in his best interests, with Russia in its weak state this was probably the best option to stay relevant and have influence. If you mean that he believed that upholding international law is the right thing to do independent of Russia situation, that is something I can not say. Maybe someone who really studied Putin could make an educated guess at this.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#799

Post by caskstrength »

danbruc wrote: post #789
theelous3 wrote: post #767

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So when putin claims casus belli over another nation's land due to previous ownership a whole bunch of times, you just disregard it because of something he _didn't_ say years ago? The tactic of "rules for thee but not for me" is as old as time. The implication that putin wants russia to actually be held to the same standards as he is trying to get other nations held to - all the while fomenting war on his borders and…

I just read the entire address by Putin [1] after the invasion started - it's all about NATO expansion, historical borders or something along that lines make no real appearance in the entire thing. I know that he supposedly said things more in line with your point on other occasions but I never came across something that convincingly provided support for this point of view. Can you provide sources? [1] https://www.bl…

Here you go https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Historical_Unity_of_Rus...

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#800

Post by ajvs »

dale_glass wrote: post #766
nivenkos wrote: post #745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well of course, they are at war. Especially as weapons and money flood in from both sides, escalating the conflict further (long-range missiles from the USA that can hit Sevastopol, the economic conscription of the Chechens and Daghestanis in Russia, etc.) But do you think this conflict is worth it? Do you support the Ukrainian claim on the Crimea? Is it worth the bloodshed and economic destruction? It's as though we…

> But do you think this conflict is worth it? For Russia, no. For Putin specifically, maybe. Russia is going to end up in a much worse position without any significant (and maybe any at all) gain. Putin is in a position where backtracking is difficult and dangerous, so he probably won't until things become completely untenable. For Ukraine it's very worth it because they're fighting for their own existence. > Do you…

> Russia is going to end up in a much worse position without any significant (and maybe any at all) gain.

Judging by how bad the inflation and energy poverty is in the West, as well as the continued loss of ground and billions in Western funds in this war whilst the ruble stays strong, I don't have the same optimism whatsoever.

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