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Ask HN: Are ergonomic keyboards really useful?

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Re: Ask HN: Are ergonomic keyboards really useful?

#31

Post by therabidbanana »

I've been using the Kinesis Advantage for about 8 months, and I'd say ergonomic keyboards are definitely useful.

The biggest factors in RSI tend to be taking frequent breaks and making sure you desk and chair are set at proper heights, but after doing those things I was still having frequent wrist pain and decided to look into more ergonomic devices.

I started with the MS 4000 and the Kinesis Vertical Mouse (http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/evoluent.htm), but after a few weeks was still having pain and it was starting to get worse. Your mileage may vary, but I found the MS 4000 to be just about the same level of comfort as a standard keyboard. It didn't really offer anything more than having a bit of a split in it. The vertical mouse seemed to help on days when I was using the mouse a lot, but on days with lots of typing, I was still getting pain.

I decided to bite the bullet and get the more expensive Kinesis Advantage. After getting used to it, my pain went away, so I'd say it was worth the extra cost. Maybe it's just the sunk cost of relearning to type on a weird shaped keyboard makes me want to feel like the time was worth it - but I suppose it doesn't matter as long as the pain is gone. Also, it's just really cool looking which is good for nerd cred in the office. :D

Re: Ask HN: Are ergonomic keyboards really useful?

#32

Post by loup-vaillant »

Here is my personal experience:

Split design helps. Straight columns help (compared to staggered keys)[1]. I don't know first hand about mechanical keys, but nearly everyone say they help, compared to the cheap membrane keys. I like scissor switch a bit better than the membrane. Based on that, I'd say your best bet is a Kinesis keyboard (contoured, advantage), because it has all 3. Do listen to those who actually tried it however (Jd for instance says that using it with a mouse is a pain).

Another keyboard that looks very promising is http://trulyergonomic.com/ (not out yet, and they brag far too much for my taste, but nevertheless looks promising: flat (easier with the mouse), split, straight, and with mechanical keys).

Now, about the keyboards I personally experienced: the cheap default keyboard is the worst by a relatively wide margin. I tried the MS 4000, and the split design makes things much better. Then I stumbled upon http://typematrix.com/. It is flat, but the straight design more than makes up for it. I like it much better than my MS 4000. I recommend you use a palm rest however: without it, your wrists can bend significantly backwards, defeating the purpose of an ergonomic keyboard.

Note that I speak under the assumption that we all touch type. If you don't, you should start. It gives a huge boost in comfort. It also helps ease neck and eye strain, as you don't need to repeatedly glance down at your keyboard. Finally, without touch typing, ergonomic keyboards are much less useful. I also recommend that you learn a Dvorak layout, or equivalent for your language (note that even though Dvorak is optimized for English, it helps many other languages as well, due to similarities in the frequencies of letters). I found the gain in comfort noticeable, though less great than touch typing. It also took me some time to learn (expect 1-4 weeks of greatly diminished typing speed).

[1]: http://www.loup-vaillant.fr/articles/better-keyboards

Re: Ask HN: Are ergonomic keyboards really useful?

#33

Post by coolgus »

I'm using the natural keyboards of Microsoft since the first model. I can't type in a normal keyboard from day 1. It's amazingly comfort and there is no way I could return back to the standard keyboards. I'm using the pc 14 hours per day and that includes much typing. I want to believe that the reason I didn't have any problem with my hands all this time (carpal tunnel) is because of these keyboards.

Unfortunately Microsoft isn't very fond of this series and since the last model (Wireless 7000) 2 years ago, it hasn't release any new model.

Re: Ask HN: Are ergonomic keyboards really useful?

#34

Post by rmc »

janees wrote: post #10
rmc wrote: post #2

I have a Natural 4000 and love it. It all depends if you have suffered from RSI. I used to type on a normal laptop keyboard all the time. Then I got pains along the top of my forearms, i.e. RSI. I switched to an 4000 and I haven't had that pain since. The most important thing to do is be aware of your body. If you get stiff or sore or pains or certain joints/muscles feel tired, that's your body trying to tell you tha…

Thanks for sharing, For the past week,i feel slight pain on finger joints; so being a bit cautious, as it can be related to RSI. If i stop using keyboard for sometime it goes away. but will be back after typing for sometime.

That sounds like RSI. But don't just listen to random people on the internet, go talk to a doctor or a physio.

What territory are you in? Are you an employee? If EU, there is EU law saying that all employers must do an ergonomic assessment of a workplace.

Re: Ask HN: Are ergonomic keyboards really useful?

#35

Post by steventruong »

Jd wrote: post #27

Ergonomic keyboards ease strain when one is typing a lot, which can easily happen when one types for a living. They are a necessity for many who end up with wrist strain (I had my first serious episode at age 17, another one at age 22, and another one at age 24). They also can enable you to type faster. This isn't very important for coding, but it may be important in a variety of other contexts depending on what you…

They also can enable you to type faster.

Do you happen to have any reputable references for this? I'm truly curious. For years people have continually spread the idea that typing on an ergonomic keyboard could allow you to type faster but it seems like everyone spreading the message are people who heard it from others and/or just relaying the message without any real evidence that suggests so (or maybe I just never personally came across any).

I have friends who type in the 130-150 wpm range using a standard keyboard, and I myself border around 100, so its hard for me to believe that switching to an ergonomic keyboard naturally means it'll allow me (or anyone else) to type faster. As a matter of fact, I've tried years ago to get use to them purely for speed reasons and no matter what I did, my type speed decreased drastically. It was awkward and even after giving it a chance for a few weeks, I just gave up.

While I can agree with the wrist ailments it aims to solve, I often wonder if the type speed thing is a perception.

For the record, I briefly tried to Google something on the subject before writing a response here, and came up with nothing (admittedly didn't try too hard however). This thread sort of peaked my old interest in this speed typing debate if you will.

Re: Ask HN: Are ergonomic keyboards really useful?

#36

Post by Jd »

steventruong wrote: post #35
Jd wrote: post #27

Ergonomic keyboards ease strain when one is typing a lot, which can easily happen when one types for a living. They are a necessity for many who end up with wrist strain (I had my first serious episode at age 17, another one at age 22, and another one at age 24). They also can enable you to type faster. This isn't very important for coding, but it may be important in a variety of other contexts depending on what you…

They also can enable you to type faster. Do you happen to have any reputable references for this? I'm truly curious. For years people have continually spread the idea that typing on an ergonomic keyboard could allow you to type faster but it seems like everyone spreading the message are people who heard it from others and/or just relaying the message without any real evidence that suggests so (or maybe I just never p…

Yep, I'm about 110 wpm without adjustment last time I clocked on a regular keyboard, but I can't maintain this for long periods of time. I suspect that ergonomic keyboards allow you to maintain high speeds, not necessarily to reach them. I don't personally don't find myself slower on, for instance, my old natural elite.

My only written reference is the material by "ergonomic experts" included with my Kinesis Advantage -- a bit on the unreliable side. Would love to know if you and Google can turn up anything else.

Re: Ask HN: Are ergonomic keyboards really useful?

#37

Post by kmiyer »

mmcconnell1618 wrote: post #21

I have a MS Natural 4000 too and I always make sure every computer I spend a lot of time on has one. I do really wish they made a model without the numeric keypad. I find it ironic that an ergonomic keyboard forces my right hand to reach to far for the mouse. There is another MS arc style keyboard with a separate bluetooth keypad but the keyboard isn't quite as good as the 4000. Anyone know of an ergonomic keyboard a…

I ran into the same problem myself and started using my left hand for my mouse -- less travel and surprisingly convenient for most of my normal mouse interaction (which is primarily scrolling, I tend to use keyboard shortcuts for most active interaction with content).

Re: Ask HN: Are ergonomic keyboards really useful?

#38

Post by snitko »

janees wrote: post #10
rmc wrote: post #2

I have a Natural 4000 and love it. It all depends if you have suffered from RSI. I used to type on a normal laptop keyboard all the time. Then I got pains along the top of my forearms, i.e. RSI. I switched to an 4000 and I haven't had that pain since. The most important thing to do is be aware of your body. If you get stiff or sore or pains or certain joints/muscles feel tired, that's your body trying to tell you tha…

Thanks for sharing, For the past week,i feel slight pain on finger joints; so being a bit cautious, as it can be related to RSI. If i stop using keyboard for sometime it goes away. but will be back after typing for sometime.

I've had it badly. Written a post about it: http://romansnitko.posterous.com/how-i-cured-tendonitis Thing that cured it like magic was a couple of immobilization splints (scroll to the bottom to see pics).

Re: Ask HN: Are ergonomic keyboards really useful?

#39

Post by nrkn »

I have a 4000 and have been using various split keyboards (previously Belkin models) for as long as I've been coding. I've never experienced RSI despite spending most of every day at a keyboard, but as I never had it in the first place I can't say for sure that it's down to the keyboard.

The only disadvantage that I can see is that I'm so used to split keyboards that I find using an ordinary keyboard uncomfortable, that includes my laptop and netbook too, neither of which I do any serious work on without first plugging in an external keyboard.

Re: Ask HN: Are ergonomic keyboards really useful?

#40

Post by janees »

rmc wrote: post #34
janees wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for sharing, For the past week,i feel slight pain on finger joints; so being a bit cautious, as it can be related to RSI. If i stop using keyboard for sometime it goes away. but will be back after typing for sometime.

That sounds like RSI. But don't just listen to random people on the internet, go talk to a doctor or a physio. What territory are you in? Are you an employee? If EU, there is EU law saying that all employers must do an ergonomic assessment of a workplace.

I am based in India, and is self employed.
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