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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#621

Post by js8 »

hetman wrote: post #562
bryik wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To anyone interested in this topic, I highly recommend "Collapse: The Fall of the Soviet Union" by Vladislav M. Zubok. This comment reminded me of one of my notes: Near the end of the book, George HW Bush tries to convince the US government to provide economic aid to stabilize the fledgeling Russian state but this fails. Earlier in the book there is talk of a "Grand Bargain", a theory that for $100 billion the US cou…

I see this claim pop up pretty frequently but I think it ignores a rather important factor and that was that those countries suffered complete defeat at the hands of the US, that meant the US could impose any ideology they wished on the country. This was never the case with Russia. Now for sure, the USSR ended its life as a failed economic state, and the Russian Federation that emerged may have been willing to accept…

The EU didn't have to conquer the Eastern Europe to enforce lots of its legislation (as well as support programs) on its new member states. And compared to other post-Soviet states, the EU members are doing pretty well. So I think there is a counterexample in your claim that you need to conquer. It was a failure of neoliberalism.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#622

Post by leosarev »

ozgune wrote: post #229
lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

I read "Gorbachev: His Life and Times" almost randomly five years ago. I'm going off of memory, but my primary takeaway from the book was your comment. Gorbachev believed in Western ideals, maybe a bit too much. The Western leaders were extremely supportive of his reforms and promised to be with him. After the Wall fell, and Russian economy nose dived, no one was there for him. People were starving on the streets, Go…

> Gorbachev asked for humanitarian aid, but nothing came.

That's contradicts both wide known facts (bush's legs) and my own personal experience as a child.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#623

Post by interfixus »

pastacacioepepe wrote: post #238
idlewords wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent comment is correct, Lithuanians were demonstrating for the right to self-determination. The Baltic States were forcibly annexed to the Soviet Union in 1940; the comparison to Catalonia or US states is specious. Over two million people participated in peaceful protests in 1989 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Way ), the Soviet decision to suppress this movement by force is a black mark on Gorbachev's…

> The parent comment is correct I'm sorry but it's not, and I already stated why with reason. They were not asking for "democratic reforms", but for independence. Call it self-determination if it makes you feel better. Debate my comparisons, fair enough, I just tried to put things in perspective.

As someone previously pointed out, the perspective here is that Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia were invaded and forcibly annexed in 1940.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#624

Post by UweSchmidt »

blahedo wrote: post #606
bhupy wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The transition to a market economy went very well for most of the former Soviet Republics except Russia. https://economistwritingeveryday.com/2022/03/16/the-transiti... A lot of Russia's issues stem from the way the government sold off their state owned corporations, which created artificial monopoly/oligopoly owners overnight — often insiders/cronies to begin with. This can be contrasted with traditional market econ…

Did you just explain to someone from a communist-bloc country, who had just said how badly the transition went in their country, that the transition had actually gone well? This is a cousin to both mansplaining and gaslighting, and if we want good, lively discussion on HN we should try to be careful to avoid it. The gp comment gave some very specific and relevant comments about economic upheavals in the late Gorbache…

"Did you just..." is the phrase to avoid when you want a good, lively discussion.

OP offered a link and an explanation for some of Russia's trouble: the formation of government-backed oligarchies that prevented a healthy market economy to develop. Not the entire picture, maybe a wrong conclusion, but a valid point nevertheless.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#625

Post by maratbn »

chernevik wrote: post #351

Historically it's very unusual for someone with so much power to allow his regime to collapse so peacefully. And it's remarkable that Soviet politics, some of the most brutal and self-serving in history, would find such a figure at its head. God bless him and keep him.

Indeed, what he did by stepping down peacefully was highly unusual for a politician in his circumstances. It was like a miracle. And now we're seeing a more typical behavior from the successor of his successor.

It is too bad that in his later years he kinda regretted it, and kept saying "I should have kept going until the end". Perhaps it is natural to regret past decisions wondering if an alternative decision might have led to a better outcome. Hope that before he died he realized that had he pursued that alternative path he'd end up like Putin.

In summary -- Mr. Gorbachev was one of the most decent politicians and upstanding people in general that ever lived.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#626

Post by leosarev »

hetman wrote: post #568
jimmySixDOF wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are also dealing today with blowback from the perceived claim that "Not One Inch" [1] of NATO expansion to the East could be expected as Western policy. The Partnership for Peace program may have started off in the right direction, but, as the military hawks took policy control like good generals the only thing they actually cared about was "securing the nukes". And expanding NATO to the East. Ps I worked with a g…

Ah the old "there's only two sovereign nations, USA and Russia, and everyone in between are just puppets" line of thought that seems so entrenched in the Russian Federation, presumably because the Soviets could not conceive the common people of any country wanting anything without being agitated through propaganda (after all, when you have near total control over the media, independent thought does seem like an aberr…

Please remember that a Cuba is sovereign nation, but USA were willing to go to the nuclear war to have Soviet troops and equipment removed.

But the way, USA still occupies part of Cuban soil against will of Cuban people, doesn't they?

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#627

Post by euroderf »

idlewords wrote: post #61

Gorbachev secured his place in history by what he didn't do. While never endorsing the end of the eastern bloc, he made it clear beginning in the late 1980's that unlike his predecessors, he would not oppose democratic reforms in Eastern Europe by force. To general astonishment, he kept this promise, and with the regrettable exception of Lithuania this commitment to not repeating the crimes of his predecessors is Gor…

Not to pick a fight, but I feel it's important then to note that it was not Reagan who "won" the Cold War. It was Gorbachev, who had the political courage (and idealism) to take the leap.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#628

Post by leosarev »

avmich wrote: post #313
epolanski wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually US did a lot to help Yeltsin reelected, never stopped the expansion eastwards, attacked Serbia without UN approval, pushed for Kosovo referendum under Nato occupation, never stopped the military exercises and flights on russian border and tried its best to meddle in Russia's internal affairs and us economists were among those that most pushed Yeltsin for the shock transition towards a capitalist market which…

> I think US did enough divide and conquer and meddling to help bringing back an authoritarian government. There is a phrase in Russia, :) "But in USA they lynch people". The idea is that in Russia it's often that discussion is interrupted by listing the ills of America, to avoid talking about Russia or for other reasons, so it's easy to justify pointing fingers to "the real evil". I think you're wrong and your argum…

>Current Russian laws mean little to define Russia de facto.

There is a huge difference between real totalitarian state and present day Russia. In present day, there are less than 100 people have been imprisoned for "political" reasons (for violating foreign agent law or for violating army fakes law). It's widely discussed and criticised in Russian national media.

In 1937 alone something like 700000 people were executed by Stalin's NKVD, and millions were imprisoned. If I wrote comment like this, it surely leads to my imprisonment. That was totalitarian state, state when you are afraid to speak freely with your own family. Current Russian regime is nothing like that.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#629

Post by maratbn »

mellowagain wrote: post #496

I remember in high school our teacher showing us enthusiastically a documentary about Gorbachev. It was unbelievable how he managed to end the iron curtain and come closer to the west at a time at which it was thought to be impossible. Trurely commendable. It is sad to see how Putin nullifies all of his effort and that he had to witness it now shortly before his death. May he rest in peace.

Putin is definitely trying to nullify Gorbachev's accomplishments, but I like to think that he'll actually end up strengthening them against his own will, in that the catastrophe he has created thru his anti-Gorbachev mentality will serve as a lesson of history for future generations and politicians.

For example, racism was kinda considered "normal" before Hitler, but after Hitler, even people like Putin don't want to be deemed racist. Right now dictatorship is kinda considered "normal" too b/c so many countries still have dictators, but perhaps after Putin, no politician will want to be deemed a dictator.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#630

Post by webmobdev »

jorblumesea wrote: post #145
lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

If you study geopolitics and history, you might come to the conclusion that Russia was never going to be a democratic ally of the West regardless of how much economic aid they were given. Russia at the end of the cold war had geopolitical imperatives such as a warm water ports, buffer states and desire for Russian hegemony that would have existed regardless of their economic state. They also have a long, long history…

Gorbachev wanted Russia to be a part of the Europe, and many say he was also assured of the same by the west (this is obviously contested now). But obviously this is against US political interests, as a stronger Europe weakens its hold on world power. And the US might have been right that Russia in Europe may have tilted Europe against it in the future, and the cold war would have continued perhaps in a milder form.
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