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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

reuters.com

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#581

Post by gernb »

munk-a wrote: post #123
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Marshall Plan was about economic investment. The transition from communism to capitalism was a very rough one for the Soviet people, and that's a big part of why democracy failed. It was also about stabilising a war-torn continent’s economy. To keep them from going communist.

And it would've made a lot of sense to re-apply it here since Russia has clearly gone in a strongly authoritarian direction and is invading its neighbors. It's a pretty clear example of a destabilizing actor in the region.

How would you have applied it? Japan surrendered so they had a lot less say in how things where handled. No such thing happened with the USSR/Russia.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#582

Post by hetman »

lapcat wrote: post #406
jorblumesea wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you study geopolitics and history, you might come to the conclusion that Russia was never going to be a democratic ally of the West regardless of how much economic aid they were given. Russia at the end of the cold war had geopolitical imperatives such as a warm water ports, buffer states and desire for Russian hegemony that would have existed regardless of their economic state. They also have a long, long history…

> If you study geopolitics and history Please don't make assumptions about what other people have or haven't studied. > They also have a long, long history of authoritarianism. You could say the same about the Axis powers in WW2.

The ideologies and power structures of the axis powers ceased to exist as a result of the outcome of WW2. This was not the case when the Russian Federation took on the mantle of the inheritor of the legacy of the USSR. Therefore it does not make sense to equate the history of authoritarianism in these places.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#583

Post by michaelwww »

hackerlight wrote: post #550
idlewords wrote: post #61

Gorbachev secured his place in history by what he didn't do. While never endorsing the end of the eastern bloc, he made it clear beginning in the late 1980's that unlike his predecessors, he would not oppose democratic reforms in Eastern Europe by force. To general astonishment, he kept this promise, and with the regrettable exception of Lithuania this commitment to not repeating the crimes of his predecessors is Gor…

From everything I've read about him, he was a true liberal and egalitarian. How does someone like that rise up the ranks of an authoritarian USSR in the first place? Did he hide his beliefs and present as just a competent bureaucrat until he got to the top?

The way I remember as a far off observer was the Soviet Union went through a few very old and ineffective leaders after Brezhnev died, while their war in Afghanistan drained resources so they couldn't possibly keep up with Reagan's Star Wars initiative. Gorbachev was a young, vital fresh face with new ideas that they had to go with to try to reform and survive.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#584

Post by fithisux »

lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

You mean Neocolonialist practices like in African or South American countries?

Russia was and will always be a superpower. No need for humiliating "pats on the back" by Anglo-Saxons. They always wanted to see them fall.

Tough luck though.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#585

Post by fithisux »

paganel wrote: post #221
lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

> There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War l There was such a plan, at least in the twisted minds of the people behind the Washington Consensus. They were calling it privatization or price liberalization or some other non-sense like that, thing is the common people got the very, very short stick (like my parents, who lost their jobs, their city apartment and who had to resort to literally subsistence agricultu…

Well said.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#586

Post by mongol »

RichardCNormos wrote: post #5

Paraphrasing President Reagan: The Moscow police are notoriously strict when it comes to speeding. One day, Gorbachev and his driver are going to a meeting, and they are running late. Gorbachev admonishes the driver to go faster, but his driver refuses. Finally, Gorbachev says, "Fine! Pull over! I will drive." Gorbachev starts speeding through the streets of Moscow with his driver in the back seat. They are pulled ov…

Ronald Reagan jokes on Youtube are more worthwhile than most what Netflix has to offer.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#587

Post by mantas »

romwell wrote: post #516
mantas wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, USSR should have kept all the occupied countries! /sarcasm

I was trying to say that there was a way forward for the Cold War to end without the dissolution of the USSR — not that it'd be great for the occupied countries (or people of USSR in general) for USSR to continue existing. The dissolution could have happened afterwards, in an organized manner, as a process — not a cataclysm. That way we could have ended up with the new countries not having old apparatchiks as little…

Dissolution as it did was quite organised. Especially when you take into consideration that the society could barely function in market economy after decades of living sovietism. And economically it was a mess with too much focus on military complex. The rest being terribly inefficient.

The only way to stay away from the old apparatchiks would have been management by occupational forces for several decades. And that occupational forces should have kept USSR market closed instead of pushing their own produce. Which is hardly possible.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#588

Post by mongol »

LetThereBeLight wrote: post #51

Anyone interesting in learning more about Gorbachev's life, I recommend watching Werner Herzog's Meeting Gorbachev.

It was interesting but not as good as I expected given that Herzog is quite brilliant. I think he got less of Gorbachev's time than he expected when he started.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#589

Post by russocan »

avmich wrote: post #313
epolanski wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually US did a lot to help Yeltsin reelected, never stopped the expansion eastwards, attacked Serbia without UN approval, pushed for Kosovo referendum under Nato occupation, never stopped the military exercises and flights on russian border and tried its best to meddle in Russia's internal affairs and us economists were among those that most pushed Yeltsin for the shock transition towards a capitalist market which…

> I think US did enough divide and conquer and meddling to help bringing back an authoritarian government. There is a phrase in Russia, :) "But in USA they lynch people". The idea is that in Russia it's often that discussion is interrupted by listing the ills of America, to avoid talking about Russia or for other reasons, so it's easy to justify pointing fingers to "the real evil". I think you're wrong and your argum…

What does it matter what Slovenia wants? NATO is US empire, at the end of the day it's US decision.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#590

Post by dmitriid »

bhupy wrote: post #288
paganel wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War l There was such a plan, at least in the twisted minds of the people behind the Washington Consensus. They were calling it privatization or price liberalization or some other non-sense like that, thing is the common people got the very, very short stick (like my parents, who lost their jobs, their city apartment and who had to resort to literally subsistence agricultu…

The transition to a market economy went very well for most of the former Soviet Republics except Russia. https://economistwritingeveryday.com/2022/03/16/the-transiti... A lot of Russia's issues stem from the way the government sold off their state owned corporations, which created artificial monopoly/oligopoly owners overnight — often insiders/cronies to begin with. This can be contrasted with traditional market econ…

> The transition to a market economy went very well for most of the former Soviet Republics except Russia.

Haha what? There were 15 Soviet Republics. Can you name the "most" of them where the transition went well?

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