Mikhail Gorbachev has died • Hacker News Board

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#551

Post by photochemsyn » Wed, Aug 31, 2022, 4:18 AM UTC

nradov wrote: post #227

photochemsyn wrote: post #100

"Arsenals of Folly" By Richard Rhodes is one of the best records of the Gorbachev era with respect to negotiations over arms reductions with Reagan (which resulted in a highly fractured US administration, with opponents (Cheney etc.) fighting advocates (Shultz etc.) over what policy Reagan should support), the immense effect of the Chernobyl disaster on the Soviet Union (something many nuclear energy proponents still…

I won't attempt to defend NATO interventions in other countries, but disbanding it like the Warsaw Pact was never a real option so long as Russia continued to maintain a significant military capability including nuclear weapons. The Warsaw Pact was never a real thing to begin with. It was a total fiction, not a voluntary alliance of (somewhat) equal sovereign states like NATO. All of the other Warsaw Pact members wer…

When the Berlin Wall came down, there were not a few people still around with vivid memories of what 'Unified Germany' had got up to in the 20th century, so there was that. Just sayin.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#552

Post by petre » Wed, Aug 31, 2022, 4:29 AM UTC

paganel wrote: post #221

lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

> There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War l There was such a plan, at least in the twisted minds of the people behind the Washington Consensus. They were calling it privatization or price liberalization or some other non-sense like that, thing is the common people got the very, very short stick (like my parents, who lost their jobs, their city apartment and who had to resort to literally subsistence agricultu…

> most of the really juicy assets (like almost of all our banking sector, our oil resources etc) got sold to Western companies

You're painting an incomplete picture. The assets got sold only after being looted by former regime cronies who enriched themselves in the process. It's entirely our own fault for failing to prevent this 32 years after the USSR collapse.

Russians mistakenly fault Gorbachev for the USSR collapse. He only saw the writing on the wall and made a soft landing. The USSR was going to collapse anyway.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#553

Post by 29athrowaway » Wed, Aug 31, 2022, 4:29 AM UTC

Trivia: He appears in Street Fighter II (Zangief's ending).

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#554

Post by cowtools » Wed, Aug 31, 2022, 4:29 AM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #359

karaterobot wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment makes it sounds like you believe the U.S. had the power to decide whether or not Russia would turn into a kleptocracy or not. Maybe I'm misinterpreting you, but if I'm not, I'm skeptical. Marshall plan notwithstanding, I would give credit to the people and government of Japan for their post-war success: it could easily have gone another direction, and the U.S. couldn't have stopped that from happening. L…

> I don't think the U.S. should take on the burden of developing other countries; going down that road has been a bad idea more often than not. From what I can tell from history, our successes involved US taking sovereignty and ruling absolutely for a period of years while setting up a government of our choosing to replace us. Our failures involved quickly setting up a local democracy and allowing self rule while we…

It depends. Pulling out of afganistan earlier would have saved us a lot of time and money.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#555

Post by lotusmars » Wed, Aug 31, 2022, 4:31 AM UTC

baybal2 wrote: post #300

paganel wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War l There was such a plan, at least in the twisted minds of the people behind the Washington Consensus. They were calling it privatization or price liberalization or some other non-sense like that, thing is the common people got the very, very short stick (like my parents, who lost their jobs, their city apartment and who had to resort to literally subsistence agricultu…

Russian citizen here, and one with enough self-honesty to talk about 199X without selling self-pity, unlike my compatriot here. > The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. Total bullshit. The West did put in nearly as much money as part of GDP in aid to early 199X Russia as US did in Europe…

This should be the top comment. As a Russian myself I totally agree.

The USSR should've been broken up until a number of sustainably small republics left. Let Islamic regions go that themselves wanted out (and Russians wanted and still want them out as well) and which resulted in bloody wars on Caucausus.

What actually happened is a quiet takeover by party apparatchiks. The "dissolution" of USSR was performed by three major communist party members so that most important asset Russia (de facto RSFSR left intact) was not broken up.

The power was still centralized in Kremlin as well. The first and last actually elected parliament (elected back under Gorbachev) was crushed in 1993 by Kremlin.

KGB was allowed to regroup as FSB, hide a lot of crimes and then run for power in 1999.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#556

Post by _8j50 » Wed, Aug 31, 2022, 4:31 AM UTC

publicola1990 wrote: post #528

Say what you will, he seemed a politician very keen on world peace, beyond mere lip service. He understood the lacunae of the Soviet system and genuinely set about to reform them. But ultimately it was Ethno-national interests in Ukraine, Baltics and Central Asian republics along with the rise of opportunist power-grabbers like Yeltsin that did him and Soviet Union in. And perhaps his own reluctance to follow the Chi…

That was a very human mistake to prioritize politics (people) over essential root-causes (money). I am convinced that for most people, their development years (pre-adolescent) shape them, and for Mikhail, the experiences of his father and maternal grandfather as he witnessed as a child shaped him. He saw a cruel world made by people and tried to fix it, but for humans, the root cause is always superseded by basic needs.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#557

Post by _8j50 » Wed, Aug 31, 2022, 4:33 AM UTC

kshacker wrote: post #488

hunglee2 wrote: post #15

Hard to know the man behind the image, but Gorbachev seemed like a fundamentally decent man, who was perhaps over his head at a moment no one could be reasonably be expected to prepare for. Still, with him at the helm of the sinking ship, chaos and conflict was at least avoided, or at least deferred, and for that we should be thankful. RIP

Fundamentally decent man ... don't want to jinx it but reminded me of Jimmy Carter. Separated by 5-10 years in their peak power, with similar difference in their age. Both well regarded by their followers but eventually significantly irrelevant (except symbolism) once out of power.

No good intention comes without punishment.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#558

Post by testrun » Wed, Aug 31, 2022, 4:34 AM UTC

jollybean wrote: post #471

somat wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true, the question is, what was the difference between the occupation of japan and germany and the occupation of afganistan, iraq or vietnam. The lesson of the latter is that all it takes is 20 years of low level combat until the occupying country gets tired and leaves. the lesson of the former is that defeated countries can become your greatest allies. As to what leads a nation to choose one path or the othe…

Japan and Germany were extremely well organized and coherent states before the war. They had both civic and long established cultural basis to rebuild to. 'Afghanistan' is barely a state, it never really was a nation. It's a 'border' around a chaotic gaggle of tribes living in the past. They'll ebb and flow given different kinds of leadership, most of which won't have anything to do with anything happening outside ur…

Agree with most except South Vietnam. The South Vietnamese government was corrupt to the core. And if you don't have the support of the populace there was nothing that the USA could do to make it work (Linebacker or otherwise). You would only prolonged the conflict.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#559

Post by petre » Wed, Aug 31, 2022, 4:35 AM UTC

testrun wrote: post #549

catominor wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The DDR/BDR wealth/income divide is still significant, even today and in spite of the government's fairly aggressive taxes explicitly earmarked to develop the former DDR.

And if you compare current eastern Germany as opposed to the DDR, current inhabitants have it so much better. Another group that did not improve are the stans (Kazakstan and related countries).

They're all run by lifelong presidents, with the exception of Kyrgystan, which is now basically a Chinese colony. So no real democracy there.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#560

Post by _8j50 » Wed, Aug 31, 2022, 4:37 AM UTC

paulpauper wrote: post #72

Like Bill clinton, he helped define 90s geopolitics. It's remarkable how he faded away like he did. Nelson Mandela, Yassir Arafat , Ariel Sharon..that whole era.

This is what I meant about being one of the lasts of his kind in a different comment. These leaders lead! They had character that inspired people. They were not merely the least evil choice or the only choice, they were the choice men and women devoted their lives to.