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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#521
post #401
post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yey it's always US fault. Russian people obviously have no agency

Completely missing the point, which is that transitioning from totalitarianism/communism to democracy/capitalism is an extremely difficult task for any country, and they could use the help. Just like other countries could use the help recovering from WW2. It's indisputable that many Russian people suffered economically during the transition.

All former soviet republics suffered economically yet only one is acting this way.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#522
post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

I've been thinking about the 'success' of the Marshall Plan relative to the massive failures of the various attempts to repeat it that spent significantly more money (off the top of my head: Vietnam, Balkans, Afghanistan, Iraq) and I've come up with a few things that seem like they were present in the Marshall Plan but not in the later, failed copies.

A) Rebuilding democracy versus building it. Most obviously, it is easier to get everyone to end up in a place when they have already been there. Konrad Adenaur, for example, was first elected Mayor of Koeln under the Wilhelmine Empire, and had first won an election 40 years before becoming Chancellor (with a dozen year interregnum, spent in obscurity during the Nazi era). Similar story w.r.t Japan (Yoshida Shigeru was a diplomat rather than an elected official, but had the same sort of career, right down to the big hole where he had no official job during the war). The main Axis nations had been reasonable democracies within the past 15-20 years, whereas Afghanistan and Iraq were farther from that (and their initial leaders were refugees rather than people who had stayed, which is an enormous difference that I think US leaders missed). The USSR obviously was a lifetime since the last real, multiparty elections in 1917.

B) Many nations working together. The Marshall Plan aid was distributed across most of Europe, and in a way that emphasized international cooperation (with 25% going to the UK, 18% to France, and 11% going to West Germany, it truly was split among many nations). This helped to rebuild international trade that truly cemented the nations together. This is plausible for a USSR modernization, so long as the Russians are willing to admit that the other nationalities are truly independent. (The most successful of these attempts, in the Balkans, largely did manage to tie the international knots together. The others not so much. But how much of that was that Slovenia and Croatia are great vacation trips for Europeans, in a way that going to Moscow was simply much more distance?)

C) Continuing presence of US troops. Japan's economic growth really dates to the Korean War, when the US military suddenly energized and needed local production to supplement weapons and goods shipped across the Pacific. Similarly, from roughly that point to the end of the Cold War the US had a quarter-million men in Germany alone (more in the UK, Italy, etc.). Those men needed goods and services, and had dollars to spend. This is basically impossible to imagine for the fUSSR. (In Vietnam/Iraq/etc. the US military obviously had a continuing presence for a long time, but it largely provided its own food and supplies, rather than depend on the local economy. Lots of money did leak into the local economies, but not in economically beneficial ways- read much of it was captured by graft.)

D) Humiliation: this is important point that is something of a combination of A and C- there was a complete and total defeat, with most of the country smashed down to rubble, which made the democratic history seem attractive, and a massive continuing US presence, which seems to have prevented Dolchstoss narratives and backsliding from taking hold. This seems incredibly unlikely for the fUSSR to me. Even at their lowest, they were an independent country with a massive nuclear arms cache and quite a bit of (well-justified) pride in, e.g. Yuri Gagarin, Sputnik, and Sergei Korolev.

Basically, this isn't about money: the US spent about as much on civil reconstruction (excluding military expenses) in Afghanistan alone, as it did on the entire Marshall Plan in all of Europe adjusted for inflation (using CPI-U, the most common gauge). So there has to be more than just money, and I'm skeptical that the US had significant power to make the former USSR outcomes better.

Certainly, any discussion of a successful fUSSR Marshall Plan would have to start with why the Baltics outcomes are so much better than Russia, and I don't have much of a story for that.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#523
post #124
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some did, some didn't, the way it happened. The Cold War wasn't a good thing, but it didn't have to end with the dissolution of the USSR, and the dissolution of the USSR didn't have to end with a coup, followed by chaos, which nevertheless kept all the appartchiks in charge. 30 years later, we can see how the people who were in charge of the USSR are the reason if fell apart: because they are still running Russia, an…

> The Cold War wasn't a good thing, but it didn't have to end with the dissolution of the USSR, and the dissolution of the USSR didn't have to end with a coup, followed by chaos, which nevertheless kept all the appartchiks in charge. We may almost always wish things were better than they actually were. For example, USA went through a minor recession at the end of the Cold War - was it necessary? In case of USSR thing…

Hindsight is 20/20, sure, but the 90s were a time where a lot of people didn't have anything to eat, a time where everyone's life savings turned to dust overnight, a time where many people ended up homeless, a time where highly educated people became unemployed without warning (or couldn't get salaries for years on end) and were better off sweeping streets than working at science institutes...

And that set a basis for Putin being revered in early 2000s for bringing in "stability".

The war in Ukraine is an outgrowth of that.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#524
post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

We are also dealing today with blowback from the perceived claim that "Not One Inch" [1] of NATO expansion to the East could be expected as Western policy. The Partnership for Peace program may have started off in the right direction, but, as the military hawks took policy control like good generals the only thing they actually cared about was "securing the nukes". And expanding NATO to the East.

Ps I worked with a guy who was in Russia for IBM in those days and he said they needed armed guards and dummy trucks to deliver a Mainframe.

[1] https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/57615585-not-one-inch

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#525
post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

A "Marshall Plan" for Russia would have worked as well as the "Marshall Plan" for Afghanistan has worked over the last 20 years. You can't impose your system on people who don't want it. Do you think Russia would have handed control over to Westerners? And without control it's just an endless money sink. The oligarchs would just have become a little richer.

I wasn't suggesting imposing a system on Russia or taking control, any more than the US imposed a system or took control of the UK after WW2.

"The largest recipient of Marshall Plan money was the United Kingdom (receiving about 26% of the total). The next highest contributions went to France (18%)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

Moreover, Russia clearly did want and in fact received some economic aid under Yelstin.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#526
post #159
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah right, because the USSR had never before gone through hardship, and it's the "bankruptcy" that led to ousting of Gorbachev in a coup after his reforms (including a de-facto Prohibition, in Russia of all places!). Let's also ignore that little thing that Russia is now doing in Ukraine, and put up a "mission accomplished" banner on the clusterfuck that happened in 1991. The USSR didn't fall apart because of any go…

> Yeah right, because the USSR had never before gone through hardship, and it's the "bankruptcy" that led to ousting of Gorbachev in a coup after his reforms (including a de-facto Prohibition, in Russia of all places!). Hardship is something USSR went through many times - until it didn't. And there were many reasons, on many levels, why the situation in late 1980-s was bleak. What was with the oil prices at the time?…

I'm not saying that Gorbachev's ideals were flawed. It's the approach he took to putting them in place.

In a way, he was putting "the human face" on socialism in the same hamfisted manner that the "should be done" socialism was pushed down people's throats before.

His bright idea to solve the alcoholism problem by having a Prohibition 2.0 is a prime example.

What with the oil prices? Forget that, look at the vodka prices.

That's solely on Gorbachev. And it worked as well as you'd expect.

https://www.nytimes.com/1985/08/27/world/soviet-liquor-price...

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#527
post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

> There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake This notion is based on ignoring historic facts. Germany (and Japan) in WWII were fully vanquished foes whose entire socio-political system was redrawn by the victors. Marshall plan executed in an environment of near total control over Germany. US simply was not in a position to do a Marshall Plan for ex-Sovie…

Yep, serfdom was abolished in England in 1574 and in Russia in 1861, almost three hundred years later.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#528
Say what you will, he seemed a politician very keen on world peace, beyond mere lip service. He understood the lacunae of the Soviet system and genuinely set about to reform them. But ultimately it was Ethno-national interests in Ukraine, Baltics and Central Asian republics along with the rise of opportunist power-grabbers like Yeltsin that did him and Soviet Union in.

And perhaps his own reluctance to follow the Chinese model. He prefered to do political reforms before economic ones, while the Chinese prefered the economic reforms first and foremost.

He ended the war in Afghanistan. He was more keen on Nuclear disarmament than Western leaders: Western leaders dragged their feet on that matter, and ultimately we didn't get no where near Nuclear disarmament.

He ushered in reforms. See the Soviet films of the period to see a very different picture from cold war era Hollywood depictions.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Especially when there's a lot of prior baggage of being ruled by a single person, be it a tzar or a head of Politburo. This describes Hungary, Czech Republic, Romania and Poland, all former Soviet bloc countries. They've all had varying levels of success transitioning from communism to democracy and from a planned economy to market. So it can happen. Could it have happened for Russia? Who knows? Based on the above,…

> This describes Hungary, Czech Republic, Romania and Poland, all former Soviet bloc countries. They've all had varying levels of success transitioning from communism to democracy and from a planned economy to market. Yes, but neither the Baltics nor Warsaw Pact countries want anything to do with communism in the first place. It was forced onto them. So transitioning back to a democracy and market economy was far mor…

Point taken.

It's interesting to think about nations as individual people with both innate and learned characteristics. The latter can override the former in some cases, but it usually takes a lot of effort and/or extreme circumstances.

A nation's innate characteristics wouldn't be gene based as would an individual though. It would stem from the circumstances of its beginning and its history that forms the ethos of a people and is passed down from generation to generation. In that way, it is gene like.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#530
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, the "shock therapy" approach that Russia took in the Yeltsin years was, in many ways, prescribed by the West, and ended up being a complete disaster for both your average Russian person, and for capitalism and democracy as a whole, because most people just learned to associate these things with the kleptocracy that occurred in the 90s.

Interestingly, the disdain for democracy in both Russia and China is strongly motivated by "we've already tried giving people freedom and it didn't work". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warlord_Era https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Russian_constitutional_cr...

China also learned a lot from the brutal liberalization in the breakup of USSR. Their own shift to markets was explicitly designed to avoid such a catastrophe. The book "How China Escaped Shock Therapy" on the topic is interesting.
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