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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

reuters.com

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#201

Post by xg15 »

avmich wrote: post #112
bishnu wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This analogy doesn't hold for "WWIII" though, right? By this analogy, I would call the current crisis "Cold War II".

World wars involve many countries, and Cold War definitely qualify. Today's war is a pretty active, quite large "hot" war, which also involves many countries - even though most fight by proxy.

I also think "Cold War II" for the current situation is more fitting.

I think if there is any useful distinction between "hot" and "cold" world wars then it's most likely whether super powers are in direct military conflict with each other or whether military confrontation is "only" through proxy wars.

Note that the original cold war wasn't very "cold" for much of the world either - the only thing that didn't happen was direct millitary confrontation between the US and USSR. Nevertheless there were lots of local conflicts and proxy wars where each bloc was backing a faction.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#202

Post by lapcat »

lucideer wrote: post #184
lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

> The United States didn't do enough I think if you dig into the history a bit more closely, you'll quickly find that the United States did in fact do plenty[0][1]. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/1996/03/27/world/10.2-billion-loan-t... [1] https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1996-07-09-mn-22423-...

"The International Monetary Fund said today that it had approved a $10.2 billion loan for Russia. The move is expected to be helpful to President Boris N. Yeltsin in the presidential election in June. The three-year loan is the fund's second biggest, after a $17.8 billion credit granted to Mexico last year."

"The United States transferred over $13 billion (equivalent of about $115 billion[A] in 2021[B]) in economic recovery programs to Western European economies after the end of World War II." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#203

Post by pessimizer »

cjbgkagh wrote: post #107
Tarq0n wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very serious claim, could you please provide some citations?

A peer comment reminded me of the name 'shock therapy', the think tank was called 'Harvard institute for international development'. https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2022/03/22/1087654279/how... https://www.thenation.com/article/world/harvard-boys-do-russ... My original comment has been flagged. I'd like to know why. If I'm wrong I'd like to be corrected.

It was flagged for not sufficiently praising the awful behavior of the US during and after the fall of the USSR.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#204

Post by VictorPath »

lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

What do you mean, like when Clinton and the US Congress cheered Yeltsin bombing Russia's elected parliament (Duma). Then Yeltsin appointed Putin and here we are. The US has positioned Russia exactly where it wants it - it has positioned the Ukraine exactly where it wants it too.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#205

Post by avmich »

nxm wrote: post #181
avmich wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was the absence of Marshall plan happened because of the West or because of Russia's decision? > Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. Russia today is a faint ghost of the former USSR. The events in Eastern Europe show that to an extent.

Who would pay for Marshall Plan?

How much? E.g. in early 1992 monthly stipend of a student - something which he could somehow survive for a month (not quite, too low, but somewhat close) was about 60 roubles. And the USD-RUR course was 100 roubles for a dollar. So a person was barely - very barely - surviving on 7 dollars 20 cents a year.

Do you know how much Russian economy costed at the time?

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#206

Post by AmpsterMan »

codyb wrote: post #131
Apocryphon wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was a very different situation, those were states that were militarily invaded and then occupied by American forces, who were involved in reconstructing countries devastated by war.

Yea, and most young democracies are very vulnerable. You can look at the Arab Spring for examples of failed democracies, and the early United States (it took us 20 years to get off the Articles of Confederation and work on the Constitution we use today). Myanmar's another one. India's been restricting its people's rights lately. Democracy takes a while to establish as a stable system and often fails. Alexander the Gr…

The Thirteen Colonies had a long history of democratic self governance. The revolution was mostly an independence movement. The revolutionary part was the Republican federation.

This long history of democratic rule was not present in many modern attempts to establish democracies.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#207

Post by pastacacioepepe »

nradov wrote: post #135

For those unfamiliar with what happened in Lithuania, in 1991 Gorbachev used military force to kill 14 Lithuanian civilians who were demonstrating for democratic reforms. https://www.rferl.org/a/lithuania-soviet-crackdown-1991-krem...

> who were demonstrating for democratic reforms.

You seem to comment to better inform readers, yet your comment distorts the truth.

Even the article you linked talks about Lithuania declaring independence from the USSR, not asking for democratic reforms.

Despite what your article says, if you read the story on Wikipedia, Lithuania did in fact unilaterally declare independence from the USSR in March 1990.

Just as an example, check what Spain did in 2017 when Catalonia tried to declare independence after a popular vote. If Catalonians decided to resist, there is no doubt that the Spanish state would have used violence to suppress them. Try to imagine what the USA would do if any of its states tried to declare independence.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#209

Post by VictorPath »

abraxas wrote: post #200
lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

Quoted post unavailable.

> The West has embraced Russia's democracy right after the fall of the iron curtain.

Right like Clinton and the US congress cheering Yeltsin bombing Russia's elected parliament.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#210

Post by hotpotamus »

seanw444 wrote: post #179
hotpotamus wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Federalism is one of the core principles of the Republican party. I don't believe that's a controversial statement of fact, but I also didn't think vaccines or the shape of the Earth were controversial subjects, so I never know these days.

None of the people I know who voted Republican would come close to identifying themselves as federalists. In fact, it's an occasional discussion between some of us. It's almost like two parties aren't enough to describe the positions of everyone who is forced to identify with one of them.

> We believe our constitutional system — limited government, separation of powers, federalism, and the rights of the people — must be preserved uncompromised for future generations.

That's from the preamble of the 2016 Republican platform (the most recent one since they declined to publish one in 2020 in lieu of just doing whatever Donald Trump said); literally their statement of values. But I've long believed that Republicans rely on voters who don't actually know what they're voting for, so your anecdote does strengthen that impression of mine.

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