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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

reuters.com

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#171

Post by eastbound »

baxtr wrote: post #41
lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

I once heard someone say that any country needs two attempts until democracy works out properly. Maybe it’s the same here.

The upside of claiming nothing is set until the 3rd time, is that it takes 40-80 years for each try, and that gives plenty of time to be right.

Democracy is fragile, chaotic and dirty. The French started democracy with beheading the people that the French would have elected (Louis XVI wasn’t killed until 1793, because he tried to organize a referendum for him, which he was sure to win, and the parliament people couldn’t let that happen). Then the French elected Napoleon, which is the opposite of democracy too in its processes. Then Napoleon was demoted and a few years went by and he came back in Juans Les Pins, and conquered Paris with huge crowds growing at each village.

The whole story of democracy in each country is often a farce ending with a happy power balance, while we often turn a blind eye to blatant violations of democracy when it’s in our favour.

So there’s no first or second attempt at democracy. There are errands that countries do, and sometimes they become democratic despite having a kind at the head, sometimes they look democratic and aren’t, and sometimes the negative forces win. Lest we live in the good days.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#172

Post by ProAm »

avmich wrote: post #39
ProAm wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ended or postponed?

The Cold War has definitely ended for Eastern Europe.

I dont think it really ended. Shifted. But there is a reason the US is funding fission and new Moon rockets, there is a reason the US is concerned about Taiwan. I think we're still deep in it.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#173

Post by xg15 »

alliao wrote: post #113
SlavikCA wrote: post #70

As the Russian, I'm of the opinion that Gorbachev is traitor. I hate communism, so it's good that he helped us to get rid of that. But why getting rid of communism had to include letting Americans to take reign in many government agencies of Russia? What would be your opinion of US president, if he goes to to retire in Russia? I'm reading some Russian news site, and almost universally Gorbachev is hated by Russians.

what are his chances living to this ripe old age if he had stayed? i don't think he had a spectacular life in the US either, just became a normal bloke

I still think the gp's question is relevant:

> What would be your opinion of US president, if he goes to to retire in Russia?

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#174

Post by ghostwriter »

hnhg wrote: post #157
duxup wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The locals in power have to want to do it too. As soon as enough don’t want it, it is over. I’m skeptical of the idea that you can impose Democracy.

You couldn’t impose democracy on many parts of the USA if it were suddenly removed, let’s face it.

that's good, as the US is a constitutional republic

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#175

Post by mantas »

stefan_ wrote: post #151
loeg wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably the most relevant sentence from that article: > The role of Mikhail Gorbachev in the January events remains disputed.

What is "disputed"? It says right there, under Commanders and leaders: Mikhail Gorbachev. Such is the nature of the deal; power for responsibility.

There's no paper with Gorbachev's signature. Which is pretty usual to Soviets - leave no paper trace was modus operandi since the establishment of USSR.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#176

Post by thriftwy »

blockwriter wrote: post #133
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the big difference is the oligarchs The oligarchs were minted in the late 80s and 90s. They weren’t a preëxisting power structure. Putin came to power with their and the FSB’s help. (He was also popular for not being incompetent.)

Wasn't the preexisting power structure the Soviet military? I thought that that Soviet generals stationed near large and valuable resources simply decided that these large and valuable resources had become their private property. Organized crimes and powerful politicians filled in the gaps.

Soviet military can't do nothing. It's not Latin America or Myanmar.

They will just sit there and wait for orders to come.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#177

Post by nxm »

hotpotamus wrote: post #146
seanw444 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Republicans? Man, some people just can't get past the "my party vs your party" mindset.

Federalism is one of the core principles of the Republican party. I don't believe that's a controversial statement of fact, but I also didn't think vaccines or the shape of the Earth were controversial subjects, so I never know these days.

Pushing vaccines and forcing them onto people is (or they lose their jobs). Similarly, Democratic government forced many businesses to permanently close as they were deemed non-essential.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#178

Post by pessimizer »

zdragnar wrote: post #147
markdown wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US manages to meddle and create problems all over the world. A small part of the US footprint: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...

Ah yes, the world was such a utopia before the US.

Why step into a conversation as if everybody else is arguing that there's heaven on earth? Are you going to ask people if they love Saddam next?

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#179

Post by seanw444 »

hotpotamus wrote: post #146
seanw444 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Republicans? Man, some people just can't get past the "my party vs your party" mindset.

Federalism is one of the core principles of the Republican party. I don't believe that's a controversial statement of fact, but I also didn't think vaccines or the shape of the Earth were controversial subjects, so I never know these days.

None of the people I know who voted Republican would come close to identifying themselves as federalists. In fact, it's an occasional discussion between some of us. It's almost like two parties aren't enough to describe the positions of everyone who is forced to identify with one of them.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#180

Post by Quekid5 »

gus_massa wrote: post #82
Quekid5 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this talk shows that it's probably a bit more complicated than that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF9KretXqJw Unless you happen to understand Finnish, subtitles are mandatory (and very accurate AFAICT). There is a link to a dubbed version in the comments if that is preferred.

[Remove the two spaces before the link to make it clicky.]

[Thank you, edited]
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