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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

reuters.com

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#101

Post by anigbrowl »

lapcat wrote: post #46
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, the "shock therapy" approach that Russia took in the Yeltsin years was, in many ways, prescribed by the West, and ended up being a complete disaster for both your average Russian person, and for capitalism and democracy as a whole, because most people just learned to associate these things with the kleptocracy that occurred in the 90s.

> On the contrary I agree with everything you said, so I don't take it as contrary to what I said.

'On the contrary' can have flexible scope, in this case it seems to mean 'contrary to any idea of a Marshall plan...'

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#102

Post by hourislate »

lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

No post body was provided.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#103

Post by avmich »

thriftwy wrote: post #48
avmich wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was the absence of Marshall plan happened because of the West or because of Russia's decision? > Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. Russia today is a faint ghost of the former USSR. The events in Eastern Europe show that to an extent.

It's smaller all right. But it is also much more robust. Late USSR was the kind of society where most everything was in short supply and which has even failed to feed itself. Yes, it had a lot of hardware and people. All of that was for no good, given the awful system in place.

I'd point out that USSR was much more self-reliant than Russia - you couldn't really put sanctions on Eastern block of countries, they produced everything, with certain things so good they are still competitive. Yes, market economy does greatly improve Russia's agility, but special services can't stop ruin most of what they can touch, so even market economy has limited net benefits now - while at the time of USSR they had a good counterbalance in the form of the Communist Party.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#104

Post by mistrial9 »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #53
lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

Democracy does not imply friend of or aligned with the West. Russia has historically been an imperial power and seeks to further its own power and perceived interests, and they certainly refuse to be under foreign/Western/American domination. A democratic government could mean less reckless actions but it wouldn't necessarily mean friendlier actions.

Americans seem unaware of the movement of armies by Western European Imperial powers through eastern Europe, very particularly British Imperialists, in the historical shadow of the horse-lords in centuries earlier. The talk is like everyone is innocent except the current government, that the USA opposes; so far from true.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#105

Post by desindol »

Aperocky wrote: post #60

He might be a decent human, but he's woefully bad at his job. He might be able to salvage the Soviet Union into something else, but instead most of it turned into multiple heaps of dumpster fire, which after burning and destroying, was then commandeered by thugs, mafia and oligarchs.

Sometimes you have to work in the constraints of your time as he did. You'll learn that when you get older.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#106

Post by JumpCrisscross »

lapcat wrote: post #84
duxup wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The locals in power have to want to do it too. As soon as enough don’t want it, it is over. I’m skeptical of the idea that you can impose Democracy.

> I’m skeptical of the idea that you can impose Democracy. We didn't need to impose democracy. Russia had democracy for a time. The Marshall Plan was about economic investment. The transition from communism to capitalism was a very rough one for the Soviet people, and that's a big part of why democracy failed.

> Marshall Plan was about economic investment. The transition from communism to capitalism was a very rough one for the Soviet people, and that's a big part of why democracy failed.

It was also about stabilising a war-torn continent’s economy. To keep them from going communist.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#107

Post by cjbgkagh »

Tarq0n wrote: post #75
cjbgkagh wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

That's a very serious claim, could you please provide some citations?

A peer comment reminded me of the name 'shock therapy', the think tank was called 'Harvard institute for international development'.

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2022/03/22/1087654279/how...

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/harvard-boys-do-russ...

My original comment has been flagged. I'd like to know why. If I'm wrong I'd like to be corrected.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#110

Post by markdown »

wnevets wrote: post #73
lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

> The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. Some how people manage to blame everything on the United States.

The US manages to meddle and create problems all over the world.

A small part of the US footprint:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...

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