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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

reuters.com

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#31

Post by wcarron »

lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

You can lead a horse to water; but you can't make it drink. It wasn't the US' responsibility, it was the Russian peoples'.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#33

Post by jjtheblunt »

flavius29663 wrote: post #10
INTPenis wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle, in the sense that it never ended. It only took a back seat in the media while Russia was disorganized.

it ended for 150 or so million people in Eastern Europe, that were freed from Russia.

Aren't their countries still filled with Soviet era (or even more recent?) environmental hazards, like ubiquitous asbestos and who knows what else?

When i took Russian, we watched a Soviet propaganda film : it bragged about asbestos exports as a sign of Soviet strength, and i think the teachers (one native Russian speaker) perhaps showed it to emphasize what a disaster had already been created (this was shortly pre 2000).

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#34

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

On the contrary, the "shock therapy" approach that Russia took in the Yeltsin years was, in many ways, prescribed by the West, and ended up being a complete disaster for both your average Russian person, and for capitalism and democracy as a whole, because most people just learned to associate these things with the kleptocracy that occurred in the 90s.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#35

Post by brnt »

DoneWithAllThat wrote: post #13
brnt wrote: post #2

Note that in Russian doctrine as tought in universities, the Cold War never ended.

This seems like needless pedantry at least for a conversation outside of school. The USSR (with whom the Cold War was being fought) was dissolved and Germany was reunified. For all intents and purposes it did end, just a new conflict (now with Russia) began.

Seeing as the Cold War was a framework for conflicts, not a conflict in itself, I find it extremely illuminating to consider the view of the opposing party. Not a technicality in the slightest.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#37

Post by laserbrain »

»A Soviet man is waiting in line to purchase vodka from a liquor store, but due to restrictions imposed by Gorbachev, the line is very long. The man loses his composure and screams, ›I can’t take this waiting in line anymore, I HATE Gorbachev, I am going to the Kremlin right now, and I am going to kill him!‹ After 40 minutes the man returns and elbows his way back to his place in line. The crowd begin to ask if he has succeeded in killing Gorbachev. ›No, I got to the Kremlin all right, but the line to kill Gorbachev was even longer than here!‹«

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#38

Post by insane_dreamer »

Maybe not a popular opinion, I think that had Gorby been able to succeed in his reforms rather than be squeezed from both sides, Russia would have been better off in the long run both economically and politically. Instead, it swung from autocratic communism one day to near total collapse ("free market" anarchy) the next during which those with connections and saw the opportunity gobbled up all the resources eventually leading to a oligarchical authoritarianism.
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